10-03-2001 02:41									#1
	Aaarrrggghhh!!! Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The amount of time that I am able to spend on EU is far less than I would desire anyway, so my recent experience was all the more frustrating!

I started a GC game as Spain, played for awhile, then saved and quit. Next day, started save game, played, quit for dinner. Came back after dinner and started decided to take the ships I had out of port and take them out for a spin. To my surprise when I clicked on the port, right clicked on a sea zone and then waited for the ships to arrive, when they arrived they were invisible! I could see the selection oval around where the ships should have been but no ships! As long as they were selected I could move them, but as soon as they were deselected I could never access them again. The next (and last) indication of the location of my ships was the sinking animation.

I started experimenting and found that some other save games had the same problem, and if I played on a game without the problem it eventually would (or could) develop it as well. I thought I had a video problem, I thought the game must be full of bugs, I thought a lot of things. I updated my drivers, tried playing with acceleration off, tried setting my desktop to 800x600 (blecch!) before starting the game, I even reinstalled the game!. Altogether I spent over 2 full (and FRUSTRATING) days trying to figure out how I could work around the problem. Finally I discovered that the problem was simply that before I took my fleets out of harbor I had switched the map to political view! In that view PART of the ship graphics are displayed, but not the most important part!

Man, was I relieved to find out the problem was as simple as that. I was very close to uninstalling the game and trying to sell it! Glad I get to play it instead, EU is a great game! (if confusing at times)

John-SJ

	10-03-2001 03:59									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Most of the morons that post in forums would have screamed, "EU SUCKS", "FATAL BUG", "PARADOX SUX" or "I'M RETURNING IT" in the same situation. You, sir, are clearly a refreshing exception.

	10-03-2001 07:35									#3
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Ouch! Sounds nasty. John, I'm making a copy of your post to keep on my hard drive for when I finally manage to get a copy of EU. Have you checked the EU forums or notified tech support by any chance, as this sounds like the sort of thing they were planning to fix in 1.08?

[Edit: coz sometimes I just can't punctuate for peanuts]
[This message has been edited by ravagon (edited March 09, 2001).]

	10-03-2001 09:07									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I did post this on the Eu Support forum. Unfortunately, but probably since they are doing beta on 1.08 right now, they weren't responsive to the problem.

I think I'll go back after 1.08 quiets down and mention this problem again. They don't need any more players getting burned by this.

John-SJ

	11-03-2001 00:02									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This is something I've noticed should DEFINETLY be fixed. You should be able to see troops on the political map (it'd make a whole lot of sense). Hmmm, I should play EU again, but damned memory hogging program

	11-03-2001 02:51									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well, I tried my best with EU, but for me it was an incredibly frustrating waste of time. Check out my post on the EU forum.

John-SJ

	11-03-2001 04:25									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I did read it and I think you should read the responses. The fact that it's a political map means that you're not supposed to control your empire with it. It's an informative map.


And the other issue was answered on your thread there. It takes about a month for the game to recalculate the income.


No bugs or problems, just the way the game is.

	11-03-2001 05:31									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Kyle,

I did read the responses. I knew the map problem wasn't a bug, it was just a HUGE 2 day frustration, and I was glad to see the money problem isn't either. I still can't explain why once when I loaded the save game I had no income at all and the next time I had normal income. This wasn't explained on the thread either.

But none of the explanations on the EU forum can change my major complaint. For me the game is not fun. Who knows, maybe someday I will reinstall the game and give it another try. But I know for sure it won't happen until I have tired of both Black & White and Tropico, and it may be a lot longer than that. This of course assumes that I haven't sold it in the mean time.

John-SJ

	11-03-2001 06:02									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Mmmm, Black and White...

As for the income, it rights itself after a month... at the beginning it shows 0. I myself am waiting for B&W. EU has problems being a memory hog for me for me to play it that often.

	11-03-2001 07:32									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I won't get defensive about EU because it is not quite as fun as Civ2. But a game with history sure beats the **** out of any games with f***in' monsters and magic. I would say, 'Grow up', but it's probably a generational thing. [sarcasm]Have fun playing with monsters in BW[/sarcasm].

	11-03-2001 08:49									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

I too have had little time to spend on EU. I haven't even managed to finish the tutorial. I 've got to find a way to keep the woodpeckers from eating my house, and it's time to start doing the taxes. It's going to be a few weeks before I can get into the game.

I've been reading the manual, and I have aquestion. According to the manual there are places, such as Africa, where it is difficult to colonize, but it is possible to set up a trading post. The problem with that approach is that a colony can eventually put up a fort, but I don't see where it is possible for a trading post to do so, so trading posts seem to be extremely vulnerable. This would appear to be a historical inaccuracy in the game, because European trading posts throughout the world were often well fortified.

	11-03-2001 09:38									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There's been lots of talk about stuff like the trading posts, colonies, attrition in the EU forums, another big one is why the best way to set up colonies is just to annihilate the natives where in real life natives helped many colonies succeed. But really it's just a game so complain on the EU forums where Paradox is and hope they change it but I don't think it affects the game that much. If you drop it because of this I don't see how you could have gotten though Civ2.

Anyway trading posts are ok, they generate about as much money as a colony until they get to about 1500 people, and they only cost like 10 ducates to settle and have a better chance of settling where colonies cost around 50-100 and fail a lot.

	11-03-2001 09:40									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hey don't go dissing BW until you play with the Pet AI some, man I can't wait to make a stomping pet

or a fire pet, or a water turtle pet, or something

Anyway once you get it working I'm sure you'll have a blast, the game doesn't run fast on my old P2 but it's playable and I'm having fun.

Hmm I probably should have made 1 post....
[This message has been edited by Par4 (edited March 10, 2001).]

	11-03-2001 11:44									#16
	Support Apolyton

Hmm the EU interface can be incredibly annoying at first. ( the way the religion screen is hidden in particular is a stroke of perverse genius) but it is OK once you get used to it.

I don't think it makes sense giving up this game because of two fairly minor bugs.(not even bugs really). And in genral my experience is that if you encounter a problem, unless it completely cripples the game play , it is best to move on and continue to fiddle around. Usually you will find the solution without trying just by accident. That eliminates the frustration of spending hours just trying to figure out one thing which is definitely a chore.

Frankly I think EU is superior to Civ2 both in its realistic historical modelling and in the fact that it avoids a lot of what I found extremely tedious micromanagement in Civ.

Once you have got over your frustration I suggest you give EU another try over a weekend.

BTW in case you haven't seen it this is a nice FAQ by Oranje from the EU forums: http://home.hetnet.nl/~copia-fs/faq/index.htm

It answered a few of the interface questions I had and is a good complement to the manual.

	11-03-2001 16:49									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

John-SJ,

If you are interested in selling or trading, please let me know. namk26@hotmail.com Thanks.

	11-03-2001 21:40									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

John-SJ, my friend, sorry for the knee-jerk reaction. It's not a generational thing since you and I are both 40+. Why people love games like The Sims or the upcoming BW is beyond my comprehension. But we all have different interests, so that's cool (as long as I don't have to hear Imran keep trolling about BW ).

EU is a game that takes some effort. I have no problems technically or with the UI or anything else, it's just the 'hook' hasn't got there yet for me. I am anxious to play the Amer Rev. scenario, since I know it'll be better than the Civ2, which I liked.

	12-03-2001 01:06									#20
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think I've found the answer...

http://www.europa-universalis.com/f...f&threadid=5148


In a nutshell, the 'hook' for me is 'Being There' (esp. with newer games). EU is just a complex computerized boardgame with little or no immersiveness.

	12-03-2001 03:28									#22
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But that's just it, EU has AoE animated sprites/gifs, and we know that Civ3 will have at least that. But it needs to be more than that. IMO, being on the ground for at least some gameplay elements will make it much more immersive. I don't mind play Civ2 or Pharaoh looking down, but for any other games, I want to be down there.

I would blame Combat Mission for forever screwing up my view on this.

	12-03-2001 03:35									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

"I would blame Combat Mission for forever screwing up my view on this."

You said it! The term "being there" could have been coined specifically for that game. Nobody has gotten the concept of being there any better than Combat Mission!

John-SJ

	12-03-2001 03:40									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

By the way, I just have to laugh how some people at Apolyton (not necessarily the originator of this thread but a certain participant, perhaps?) were screaming and crying for a EU forum because, well, EU was just the BEST DAMN STRATEGY game ever!


LOL! Now look at this..."No hook" "Memory hog"

This has just reaffirmed my previous thoughts. Some people here you can trust. Others. Well, others are just here for entertainment.

I'm still interested in this game, however, so if anybody wants to sell or trade it with me, contact me and we can do the deal.

namk26@hotmail.com

	12-03-2001 03:50									#25
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I just chalk it up to youthful exuberance.

Let me add what I wrote in another forum about this...

quote: I have reached the point that nowadays (esp. with a new PC), I want and need to be on the ground when playing (the "Being There" factor). I don't mind (and love) playing Civ2 and Pharaoh looking down, but that's it. Every other game, now and forevermore, I must have some views from the ground-level. It all goes back to one thing...Combat Mission. For a long, long time, grognards played all sorts of wargames looking down on a hex-based (or similar) battlefield (or ocean). Then along came the total revolutionary Combat Mission which took the same style of gameplay and puts you directly on the battlefield, with all of its accurate sights and sounds. This is why they said that CM killed the wargame because once you're there, you can't go back. I would also say it's the same for action/adventure/rpg games. Why anyone would play Diablo II looking down instead of many of the other RPGs where you have a FP/3P-view, is beyond me (if you're into that sort of thing). That's why I had no interest in CutThroats but immediately latched onto Sea Dogs. Why play Gangsters II looking down when you can 'Be There' playing Mafia? If Civ2 was Xs and Os on a grid, it will still be fun; but for Civ3, we are expecting it to feel like you are in that world and care about what's happening (just like I do playing Pharaoh). I can't quite say that for EU yet.

	12-03-2001 05:41									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I've read that somewhere before.... but I can't put my finger on it...

	12-03-2001 05:42									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yin,

I don't remember anyone (well, Depp maybe) saying EU was the best strategy game ever on this site. Me, John-SJ, and (perhaps) Steve, I know were asking for one because the game was very Civ-like.

Hell, I'll still play the game now and again, and this forum will still get its posts (certainly outdid the Dino's forum).

Perhaps you should clarify your remarks and say who are those you "can't trust". It'd have to be a European, because when we clamored for a forum (with some interesting thinking by John ) the game wasn't out in the US.

I just wonder if you even know what the Hell you are talking about?

(edit) This can help jog your memory, if need be:
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum20/HTML/001339.html?37
[This message has been edited by Imran Siddiqui (edited March 11, 2001).]

	12-03-2001 05:58									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

Imran,

If I'm not mistaken, you were the band-leader of trying to get this forum. Also, and again I might be mistaken, you were squealing like a little school-girl: "Imran has EU in his grubby little hands" or some such thing. From there, I began to tune out all the praises (not just from you, but also others) because I knew the truth would surface.

It's O.K., Imran. You are entitled to stay in character.

Yin

	12-03-2001 06:19									#29
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

By the way, I'm still interested in the game. It's not like we haven't encountered a "memory hog" game in the past. I just wonder...it seems you gave up on the game awfully fast after all your excitement. What happened?

	12-03-2001 06:29									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yin, To whom are you speaking? I don't think anyone has said that they are giving up on the game. Did I miss something?

John-SJ