25-03-2001 07:02									#1
	so, should i get it? / promised review? Put an end to popups!

what's the verdict??

and where is that review someone promised to write?

	25-03-2001 07:16									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Seeing how it's a (probably) better (but different) than Civ2, yeah.

	25-03-2001 11:46									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

It's very good.

But it has a steep learning curve, and very poor documentation (a bad combination). Be prepared to spend some time at the EU forum trying to figure out how things work (and that forum is tough to navigate, the FAQ pages even harder).

Still, it's the best historic simulation I've seen, so far. Of course, the attempt to simulate history, more realistically, has a trade-off. Some Civ players might feel there are too many details to worry about (but this is partly a perception related to the needless difficulty in understanding the rules). Some Civ players, accustomed to doing whatever they want, might also feel somewhat constrained by a game that tries to model historic or national limitations. Sweden, for example, is never going to be as viable as England, France, Portugal, or Spain in the colonial aspects of the game. Scenario Civ players, though, should be more accustomed to inequalities in starting positions and more accepting of national advantages (which are, after all, historically accurate).

For me, it is definitely worth the effort and money. A complex game like this won't appeal to some people; so, I suspect it will not have the mass appeal of...say...CivII. But it is sufficiently flexible to allow multiple variants and alternatives, beyond the scenarios that are already included in the game (indeed there is already a thriving community that is putting forth various options, scenarios, and improvements), which should help keep the game fresh for a considerable period of time (at least until Civ3 comes out...).

	25-03-2001 12:44									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'll review it, I'll review it... It'll come out soon. I just need motivation .

Don't worry, I'll get on it tomarrow (maybe ).

	25-03-2001 23:18									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Give us a chance ive only had it 48 hours,looks, feels good so far.
Hannibal

	25-03-2001 23:22									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Rob is perfectly correct.

The game itself is very interesting, and I can see how people will become addicted to it in the same manner as they were to Civ (just one more war! I'm sure I can annex pskov this time!).

But there are a lot of things to keep track of, a lot of rules to know. This would be fine (and even a plus) if there was some adequate documentation to go along with all that. Unfortunately, the manual is terrible, bordering on useless. There is neither table of contents nor index, in a book which is 128 pages long, with fairly small fonts and double columns on each page. With all that text, you'd think they could explain the game workings at some point, but much of the actual gameplay information, as far as I can make out, isn't there at all. The net effect is that you can spend twenty minutes flipping through the book to try to find some specific bit of information, only to come to the conclusion it didn't make it into the manual. It does contain a lot of interesting historical information, though, which makes for a good read if you're into history

On the plus side, there is a lot of information in the game itself, in the form of popup hints. Hold your mouse over an item for a second, and you will usually get a bit of information on what it is and how it works. It, to some extent, makes up for the deficiencies in the manual. It isn't enough, but at least it gives you a start on figuring out how things work.

My final thought: Anyone who likes the Civ genre should probably take a look at this game, there is a very good chance they will enjoy it (especially with the recent release of the 1.08 patch, which seems to have stabalized a few very serious crash bugs). Just be prepared to spend some time learning what everything means and how it works.

Ron

	25-03-2001 23:54									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Nothing much to add to the excellent posts by RR and RH. The bottom line IMO is that if you like empire-building games you have to try out EU, it brings a very fresh ,realistic approach to the genre.
http://strategy-gaming.com/reviews/...lis/index.shtml
Check out this review. It gives a very thorough description of each game-play element. If you decide to buy the game read it again thoroughly before playing because it's an excellent substitute for the rather poor and confusing manual especially as an introduction.

Oh and let me stress RH's advice to use the pop-up explanations in the game as much as possible. I didn't do that as much as I should have and it caused me some grief at the begining.

	26-03-2001 10:52									#8
	Got spare money?

Hell yes, go get it, but cross your fingers because they are shipping it in small quantities and they may run out. Last Thursday I bought the last copy they had in Papasotiriou central (Stournari). The guy told me they had only brought 7 copies, but they were going to reorder.

Oh and be prepared to pay 14.000 Drachmas (41,09 Euro) for it. Ouch!

Edit: I had to grumble about game distributors. Isn't it annoying how their shelves are full of junk, while there are gaming masterpieces out there that remain in the darkness?

------------------
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
[This message has been edited by axi (edited March 26, 2001).]

	26-03-2001 11:17									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

thanks everyone for the feedback!

quote: Originally posted by axi on 03-26-2001 12:52 AM Last Thursday I bought the last copy they had in Papasotiriou central (Stournari). The guy told me they had only brought 7 copies, but they were going to reorder.

i think the same thing is happening in the Thessaloniki Papasotiriou. they had it on display, i went in to look around but they didnt have a copy. i didnt ask about reorders.
i wonder if chips&bits will ship faster...


[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited March 26, 2001).]

	27-03-2001 01:46									#10
	Support Apolyton

YES!! YES!! YES!!

Get it now . It's the best strategy game I've ever played (beats Civ 2, IMO) .

	27-03-2001 02:54									#11
	Tired of ads?

Hehe... you know 'Black and White' is being considered a strategy game too, so EU might fall a bit after this week .

But it still is excellent. ESPECIALLY if you are a history buff. Oh, and for you Greeks, DL the IGC (Improved Grand Campaign) which is basically a HUGE mod, while allows for a minor chance for a Greek revolt and nation. Of course, the chance is minor, but it can happen.

	27-03-2001 03:02									#12
	Remove this text

Hi

O yes go get if your into long term playing and enjoy a game of depth
and sublty,its not for the faint hearted or limited intelect,the game
system rewards sensible play and has the feel of a simulation of history
that still alows you to follow your own star.The learning curve is steep
but rewarding, when the variouse components fall into place in your
mind as how best to achieve your aims you get a huge sense of achievment
The scale and scope of the game is beyond anything else currently
available,which unfortunatly is the only downside i see at the moment,
some may be daunted by its complexity and not put in the time and effort
to learn the system,for without a fairly good grasp of the who, how,
and why you consistanly find your kingdom looted three ways from sunday.
Paradox have achieved an excellent blend of playability for the many
complex issues they portray in the game,there are small critisms as to
translations in the manual,to many pop up boxes,but these are minor
problems that do not detract from a game that breaks new ground in so
many ways.

Nick Spencer

	27-03-2001 03:03									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hi

O yes go get if your into long term playing and enjoy a game of depth
and sublty,its not for the faint hearted or limited intelect,the game
system rewards sensible play and has the feel of a simulation of history
that still alows you to follow your own star.The learning curve is steep
but rewarding, when the variouse components fall into place in your
mind as how best to achieve your aims you get a huge sense of achievment
The scale and scope of the game is beyond anything else currently
available,which unfortunatly is the only downside i see at the moment,
some may be daunted by its complexity and not put in the time and effort
to learn the system,for without a fairly good grasp of the who, how,
and why you consistanly find your kingdom looted three ways from sunday.
Paradox have achieved an excellent blend of playability for the many
complex issues they portray in the game,there are small critisms as to
translations in the manual,to many pop up boxes,but these are minor
problems that do not detract from a game that breaks new ground in so
many ways.

Nick Spencer