04-04-2000 08:29									#1
	If you could build 1 wonder.... Got spare money?

what would it be?

Mich's right?Not me.I can build cathedrals.

Right now,I would take Cope's.Science is most important to me.I think,in the right city,this the most powerful wonder.

ask me next month

	04-04-2000 10:21									#2
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granted. But you can build caravans and get trade and science that way too

I would build Sun Tzu.... lasts along time... winning units are vets any new unit is a vet...... makes defense and offense a breeze while you perfect your cities.

	04-04-2000 10:22									#3
	Got spare money?

Cop's Why Cop's? Why not IN's College?

For me, it would be, hands down, Leo's Workshop. Not only for upgrading my defensive units, but turning all the settlers into engineers when I discover explosives.

-KhanMan of the Sayen Tribe

	04-04-2000 10:24									#4
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spyvspy-I don't know if there is a bug in this, but many times my version of civ2 mp (1.3), fails to make new units vets, even if I have built Sun Tzu's (and it hasn't expired).

Otherwise, Sun Tzu's would be my second choice...

-KhanMan of the Sayen Tribe

	04-04-2000 10:45									#5
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really , i have yet to experience this bug???? oh well i am lucky i guess.

	04-04-2000 11:01									#6
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Cope's doubles science while Isaac Newton gives 50 % more.The civlopedia is wrong

War Academy is one of my favs also.


One bad thing about Leo's is new updates lose veteran status whether you have Sun's or not.Its not a bug

Engineer update is one of the best

	04-04-2000 12:08									#7
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Hoover Dam. Clean free power. YUM!!

	04-04-2000 12:49									#8
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Hoover dam most definately. There is no other. Well they are, but production is always top on my list. That is more important than population growth for me.

	04-04-2000 13:44									#9
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The Statue of Liberty.
1) It offers Communism or Fundy centuries before these governments are available by research.
2) It eliminates the turns of anarchy during a change of government. This allows a quick switch from Democracy/Republic (for WLTPD to grow cities) to Communism/Fundy for the conquest of cities.
The OCC fans will have to choose Apollo.

-------------
SG (2)
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited April 04, 2000).]

	04-04-2000 16:04									#10
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Adam Smith's Trading Co. 'nuff said.

------------------
ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

	04-04-2000 16:22									#11
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Hanging Gardens. Available very early, lasts a long time. Allows you to build infinite numbers of size two cities with no other improvements - perfect for a sleazer.

	04-04-2000 20:46									#12
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Magellan's!!!
People have mixed views on this one because some say a Navy isn't important. I think it a must because your ships will have a PERMANENT advantage over the rest of the other Civs. I don't want to argue the validity of a strong naval force, but I love 'em and Magellan's is a MUST HAVE!

Adam Smith is ok too because you can pump all those 1gold-per-turn improvements into your smaller cities for perfectionist desires. I can't remember, when if ever, does Adam expire?

I think the best Wonders are those which have no expiration date...

quote: "Best if used before Metalurgy."

	04-04-2000 22:30									#13
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Leo, esp. in the way it upgrades military forces on the way to the front (which is a very cool sight). Sun Tzu a very close second.

	04-04-2000 22:33									#14
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Adam Smith doesn't expire. The case for AS is strong. If you maintain 20 cities with an average of 4 1-gold improvements (Temple, Marketplace, Library + 1 more) for 200 game turns, that's 20 X 4 X 200 = 16000 gold saved! However, its effects are diluted somewhat in later game since your maintenance costs start being driven by 4-gold Stock Exchanges and 5-gold Superhighways, not the 1 gold improvements.

Hoover Dam is powerful, but usually comes late enough in the game to not be decisive.

But for a Deity player, gaining Mike's Chapel is usually the watershed event for me. No other happiness wonder is so powerful - and it doesn't expire. It's my ticket out of Monarchy to the high growth, high science world of Republic and Democracy. By letting my switch to better a gov't, MC is almost like a science wonder too. Its effects are immediate since MC lets you fire all your Elvii and put them back to work.

A similar case can be made for HG, especially if you are building the science city. However it does expire with an advance that is truly useful to you.

	04-04-2000 23:48									#15
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Definitely Copernicus' Observatory for me. The other wonders you can build improvements to achieve the same effect, or you can use caravans to achieve a greater effect. Copes makes a sizable difference early in the game. Early on, happiness can be handled with temples, markets and a bit of martial law. Copes will typically be enough to always be ahead in tech, which is a big key to winning the game!

Adam Smith's--use caravans for gold
Apollo Space Program--nah
Colossus--expires
Copernicus' Observatory--YES!
Cure for Cancer--oh boy...
Darwin's Voyage--Copes science gets you advances
Eiffel Tower--oh boy...
Great Library--expires, Copes is better for science
Great Wall--build walls instead
Hanging Gardens--martial law is likely enough
Hoover Dam--#2, but you can build plants...
Isaac Newton's College--only + 50% science
J.S. Bach Cathedral--not bad
King Richard's Crusade--not that good
Leonardo's Workshop--expires, maybe #4?
Lighthouse--pass
Magellan's Expedition--good if on a waterworld
Manhattan Project--no
Marco Polo's Embassy--use dips
Michaelangelo's Chapel--very nice indeed #3
Oracle--expires way too soon
Pyramids--use WLT*D
SETI Program--nope, way too late in the game
Shakespeare's Theater--#5
Statue of Liberty--#6, maybe #1 for Conquerers
Sun Tzu's War Academy--maybe #2 for conquerers
United Nations--very nice diplomatic power!
Woman's Suffrage--no

	05-04-2000 00:04									#16
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This discussion illustrates why this is a great game. I've seen other wonder threads where nearly every wonder had its booster, who argued passionately that it was the best. In the end, it comes down to playing style and personal preference.

	05-04-2000 01:09									#17
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That is why my "one" wonder keeps changing

	05-04-2000 01:20									#18
	Got spare money?

Inca-There is a situation where Great Library becomes incredibly powerful: if you are playing with a lot of players, and different alliance, NO ONE but the player who has GL can trade techs without given each to the GL player...

So GL can be strong too...

-KhanMan of the Sayen

	05-04-2000 04:02									#19
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yes for different styles of games , each wonder has an additional effect or better purpose. While adam smith is diluted by more expensive improvements, getting free temples, libraries markets , first time barracks, coastal fortress, courthouse.....
in the early game can be enough to make up for the science that copernicus gives....

I would be hard pressed to pick between sun tzu and adam smith but likely sun tzu only because it comes so much earlier in the game.
... and even though it expires, it doesnt' expire until tanks, which by then i usually have the ai under control. as for MP games the juries still out

	05-04-2000 14:32									#20
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Give me that low overhead across all of my thriving cities!
Give me no expiration date!
Give me that "invisible hand of the marketplace"!
Give me ADAM SMITH'S!

Dave V, you have illuminated the essence of Civ2's beauty, the fact that so many different playing styles can be explored - and be successful! With most games you just save, die, re-load until you find the one, single winning trick or strategy. Viva la Civ2!

- mindseye
[This message has been edited by mindseye (edited April 05, 2000).]

	05-04-2000 14:46									#21
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1. SoL - to enable an early switch to Fundy
2. What other way is there that gives 300g each and every turn - it has to be Mike's

I guess I actually prefer Mike's (in Fundy) to all the others, but getting to Fundy without SoL is a pain.


------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	06-04-2000 09:46									#22
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Leo's Shop for me. I build a lot of warriors for martial law, and then after Gunpowder and Leos the 10 cost crap-units become musketeers! Horsemen to Knights, triremes to caravels to galleons to transports, dips to spies, cats to cans to arts...

But I must put in a good word for the underated Great Wall. It makes rapid early expansion much easier, because you can build a new city close to an enemy unit, and the wall is already there.. Overlooked is that it has tremendous diplomatic powers, and doubles your effectiveness against barbs. By the time Metallurgy comes around, you can be ready in your frontier cities.

	05-04-2000 23:19									#23
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Cure for Cancer!

Just think -- you'd never lose a citizen or military unit to cancer, or to any other disease for that matter. Why, until I build Cure for Cancer I lose more troops to disease than to combat. But once the Cure is there no one even gets sick. I had a few warriors once who looked like they had mild flu symptoms, but that was after being under attack -- I think they were faking it. Once some archers got indigestion, but that was because they were shooting down and eating green apples. Couple turns of bed rest and they were fine.

After Cure for Cancer, one of my diplomats even had an elephant walk over him, and he came out of it fine.


[This message has been edited by Campo (edited April 05, 2000).]

	06-04-2000 01:32									#24
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Campo,
Well then they wont mind if i build The Manhattan project and Nuke them all

	06-04-2000 04:01									#25
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If I had no wonders, I probably wouldn't live long enough to build the HD before some civs run over me with tanks !! Similarly with Sun Tzu, if the units are too backward then it doesn't help much if they are vet.

Usually I don't care for the GL since I have good science but with one and only one wonder, I would get GL, turn my science rate to zero and rely almost entirely on the GL (plus a few diplos now and then) for advances, and use the treasury money to buy the improvements to catch up in infrastructures. My science city would be loaded with Einstein, fed by a satellite city which does nothing but producing food caravan for the scientists.

	06-04-2000 05:07									#26
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The best wonder is the Adam Smith's Trading Co. In a good game, I have 80 - 120 cities, all with 5 or so 1 upkeep improvements. That saves me 500 gold a turn. With about 20 turns of Adam Smith, you can buy the other important wonders. The 'happy' wonders are good, if you can get a lot of them. Then you can have no luxuries whatsoever, and still keep your people happy.

	06-04-2000 22:38									#27
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Either the Great Library - early in the game it can give you a real headstart (and stops and tech trades pushing your competitors ahead of you) or Adam Smiths (probably Adam Smiths).
Of course I'd rather build them all

	11-04-2000 09:21									#28
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Pyramids.

I just want to know how do you use WLTCD when your cities are about size2-3?

	11-04-2000 10:49									#29
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Hmm, I'm not sure. I guess it would be either Hoover Dam or Pyramids - I would want a wonder that didn't expire.

	11-04-2000 22:31									#30
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I think the expiration of wonders is overrated. The key is to maximize the use of the wonder while it is in effect, which usually by the time it has expired, there would no need for it anyway. Three popular wonders come to mind:
Leo which expires during the modern units anyway - by then, you should have a military force of late-industrial/early modern units which in most cases, will be superior to the enemy;
SunTzu which expires with Mobile Warfare(?) - if your vet units up to that point have not secured a significant military/conquest advantage, then you have not taken advantage of that wonder; and
Colossus, when that expires, you should already have Copernicus/Isaac, three trade routes and into Democracy, therefore the expiration of Colossus has minimal effect.