06-04-2000 09:33									#1
	AI cheats on naval bombardment? Increase the size of your Attachments

Game I'm playing now, Emperor level, 7 civ, random map, RH...
I had a fortified veteran marine on a coastal plain; it was sneak attacked by a Sioux frigate. The marine lost and the frigate took only a little damage. I couldn't believe it. Even if it was a vet frigate, 6 attack, my marine should have been 10 defence. The FP should be 1 each (according to the manual, for any naval bombardment) and the HP is 20 each. I loaded the autosave, and the same thing happened again. (I reloaded it, and the Sioux decided not to sneak attack!)

Possibilities:
A sneak attack gets some sort of bonus
The manual is wrong about bombardment FP.
Naval units ignore fortified bonus of land units?

Anyone have any insight?

	05-04-2000 23:40									#2
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Naval bombardment certainly ignores city walls. In my experience, it also seems to do well against troops in forts. (I don't have a strategy book, so I can't say I'm certain about this.) However, the effect of terrain on defence against bombardment, seems the same as an attack by land troops.
Remember, all battles are a matter of chance, to some degree - as they are in the real world. Perhaps your marine was just having a "bad day".
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SG (2)

	05-04-2000 23:55									#3
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Gomer Pyle must have been in charge.

	06-04-2000 01:21									#4
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Mad,
I was curious to see why a fortified vet marine lost to a Poss. Vet frigate so i tested it. I took ten vet marines on plains squares and fortified them. Waited a turn then created 10 vet frigates. Now as this is a test to see if the ai cheats in naval bombardment i switched sides to the marines.
The ai must have calculated the odds to be to
dam ridiculous and ran away without attacking. So i repeatead. Each time the AI
ran away. Then i changed the test. I activated all marines and set them to fortify. The frigates then attacked. It would seem that a unit does not become fortified for a full turn. Anyway i did ten tests of ten for a total of 100. The frigate
won 10 out of 100 10%. I then repeated the
same test except with the human as the frigates. The frigates managed to win 9% of the time(9 out of 100). Then i fortified the
marines for a full turn (until the marines had little boxes at thier feet). Attacked the marines 100 times and lost all 100. Apparently the ai wont attack if there is little or no chance of wining. This test was
done on diety level with civ II MPG.
Is it possible that your marine was in the act of fortifying and not truly fortified??

	06-04-2000 03:20									#5
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There is one other possibility.The ai seems to have a "super" unit capability.Every so often I encounter a "horseman on steriods" that wins against a musket.One such horseman killed 3 vet phalanx in a forest city in a MP game once(he was yellow for the 2nd and 3rd kill!).Another "super" unit I remember was a frigate that easily sunk my cruiser with almost no damage.

I vaguely remember a thread where someone posted about one of these "super" units appearing in a game as a barb leader icon.If I recall correctly they immediately hit the cheat menu to see what was up and watched that unit walk thru 4 or 5 ai cities basically unopposed.It seemed to have an attack value of at least 10.

	06-04-2000 05:18									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I have only seen that syndrome with ai barbarians at emporor level or above. If u own great wall it chills em out

	06-04-2000 08:24									#7
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Neon Deon -

I just found this after reading about your testing of the Pikeman's bonus. Have you built the Research Lab improvment in your home? One hundred trials per test! You are a valuable resource to the Civ2 community!!!

- mindseye
[This message has been edited by mindseye (edited April 06, 2000).]

	07-04-2000 03:42									#8
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Neon: you're right that he was in the act of fortifying. Still, the frigate appeared to lose only two rounds both times.

Smash - I think you and the others are on to something. Super units. Same game, a cruiser came by and killed two fortified riflemen (1 vet) and a cavalry in one turn in a city. (no CoastFort)

I thought this was a little much, but within the realm of bad luck. Well, I chased the cruiser down and attacked it with a full health vet cruiser of my own. The AI had yellow health just above where it would turn red. My cruiser won, but you could barely see the red sliver left on the health bar. So it would have lost 14 of 17 rounds by my estimation, although allegedly fighting at even odds.

Within the realm of really bad luck, but...

How about my sneak attack bonus theory? Anyone notice sneak attacker doing better than you would expect?

	07-04-2000 04:12									#9
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Always.

Playing the TOT Fantasy game at King level, I found the surprise attacks coming early and often.

There is no doubt in my mind.

Mad viking, did you attack that cruiser on the same turn? It seemed to that the 'super units' only remained super on the turn they attacked--as if they had gotten a 'field promotion' that had been consequently recinded.

	08-04-2000 03:01									#10
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Super Units.

Well i havent got a clue as how to recreate
a super unit encounter

	09-04-2000 09:50									#11
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Another way that the AI navy "cheats" in Diety, as I've found, is to have an ironclad persistently pop up in a certain square, destroy one's units as they're trying to set up a coastal city, then disappear right after. I call it a "cheat" because it never appears before the hit to give a sporting chance of evasion, and disappears, right after the attack to afford no opportunity of retaliation. I think there must have been a twinkle in the programmer's eye when he fashioned the "French" units. I've noticed throughout my short Civ career, how apt they are to smite the "English" units whenever, and wherever they're able. That programmer must know that the French aren't, generally, all that keen on us Brits, in real life...they call us "Perfidious Albion"...cant think why! ;-)
[This message has been edited by George Garrett (edited April 08, 2000).]

	09-04-2000 02:12									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

Ohhhh I gotta try that one.

	09-04-2000 20:28									#13
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Aha! That cheating clad got its comeuppance -
from one of my non-fortified settlers, yet!
After shellacking seven sorts of settlers and soldiers,outa my Civ, and forcing me to abandon a cherished square on which to build a mega city, this clad popped up, fired on my toiling, tilling settler, made it a veteran, and has been seen nevermore. Almost as good as that game where one of my CARAVANS sunk a modern warship!...go figure.

	09-04-2000 22:46									#14
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Important thing to remember: a vet frigate is 6 attack, it's an even number. a marine's defense is a natural 5, maybe fractions aren't counted or are rounded down?

I don't know how this applies, but: in shore bombardment, walls are ignored (which means that vet caravels can take out pikemen sometimes), and both units are considered to have 1 hp and 1 fp. This usually results in MORE damage to ships, not less.

I don't know if ships ignore fortress bonuses.

	10-04-2000 22:52									#15
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Seeker, your claim that "naval bombardment ignores city walls" is not borne out by my most recent, and other experiences. Yesterday, in Diety SP one of ny walled cities was attacked by one, mebbe 2 "Indian" warships - destroyers? cruisers? battleships? all of the above? ...I'm not sure,all was over in a flash. Any, way my 3 fortified pikemen within were unscathed, the warship(s),presumably destroyed. While we're on the subject of fortresses, I've generally found those built by a settler, seem to be better protection than an (unwalled)city. My M.O. now, is when happening on a desirable spot on which to build a city, I have the settler first build a fortress then have my soldiers coverge on it, until there are 2-3 troops within - THEN I build my city, and after,in the hairy game which I'm presently playing, I build my walls a.s.a.p. Talking of Fortesses, some more, I swear by Coastal Fortresses - they seem to baffle everything!

	10-04-2000 23:42									#16
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Mad Monk - yes, my counterattack on the super cruiser was on the same turn.

Seeker - my marine was vet and was fortified using movement points, so the fortification would have been complete before the attack.

But I am very curious as to how the mulitpliers actually work. Here is my theory, and it (not surprisingly) conflicts with what the manual says.

50% bonuses are rounded to the nearest whole number.

A 3 defense becomes a 4. A 4 -> 6, a 5 ->7. Importantly, I believe base on experience and not testing, that a 1 defense becomes a 2 when fortified, etc.

I believe defensive bonuses are ADDITIVE not CUMULATIVE. That is, contrary to the manual, that a rirfleman in a mountain fortress will get a bonus of 12, not 24.

2x bonus for inside a fort, = +4
3x bonus for on mountain = +8
Total is 4 +12 =16.
Not 4x2x3=24.

This based on an AI not-vet artillery taking out two vet alpines in a mountain with yellow health remaining. 10 vs. 16 possible, 10 vs 24 never.

	11-04-2000 10:59									#17
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In civ 1 50% bonus was rounded but here no.
A fortified warrior defending against a horse does so at 1.5 not 2. not 1 but 1.5. I tested fortified warriors defendining against horse and the warriors could only manage 16 wins out of 100. The unfortified warriors won 1 out 100. If there was rounding up to a whole number then the fortified warriors should have won about 50% instead of the 16% they actually did. If there was rounding down then the unfortified warriors should have behaved just like the fortified ones but they didnt.

[This message has been edited by Neon Deon (edited April 11, 2000).]

	12-04-2000 09:29									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

My apologies, Seeker...since my last post on this subject, enemy warships have vindicated you, and embarrassed me by taking out several of my lovely walled cities in turn (they eliminated the pikemen/phalanxes within, left cities - and walls -intact) to the extent that I had to abandon the game as hopeless.

I think my confusion arose from the fact that, up til now, I've been playing at the safe "Chieftain" level, where it was a matter of course for my walled cities to be manned by my beloved musketeers. In Diety, my technology is so outpaced by the AI, that I find that I'm still messing about in small boats (triremes!) while the enemy has battleships, and can put up riflemen against my swords and shields. Why do I play so far
out of my depth?...must be the masochist in me...

	11-04-2000 22:31									#19
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George: find the archived thread on "super ironclad strategy" to learn how to utilize this to improve your Aggressive Military strategy in deity.

Basically, build lighthouse and run for steam engine instead of democracy. Get Sun Tzu's and Magellan's if possible. Basically, the idea is to build a fleet of about 8 ironclads (maybe in 4 different cities) as EARLY as POSSIBLE without sacrificing vital techs like trade, mono, ect.

If you have these then those frustrating AI walled cities with pikes or musketeers that were stopping your crusaders/dragoons/cannons will fall (on the coasts at least) since a 6 ATT ironclad will beat a 3 piker, or 4.5 musketeer every time, while your 7.5 strength crusader versus 10.5 AI musketeers will need 5:1 superiority to kill them (and you have to kill all of them in one turn or they heal which means wasting 20-30 crusaders when you could send six ironclads and a musketeer to do the job).

If you're new to playing at Deity, there are basically three main ways to play:
Expansionist: build settlers mostly for 2000 years,build happy wonders, get Statue of Liberty and go commie to eliminate corrupt and unhappiness from having lots of cities. Get trade and build wonders. Even if you're a little weak, you can play a bit defensively.
Endgames: either slow military conquest or slow Alpha Centauri.

Perfectionist: stay defensive, build a small number of cities (6-10), go democratic, get Women's Lib and Shakespeares. In this strategy you build up your homeland, make the 'Super Science city', and send caravans everywhere. In this strategy you should be building 3 caravans to 1 anything else. Your main army will be diplomats who get upgraded to spies.
Endgames: can get to alpha centauri very fast if you have massive cities and insane money and science, military victory may be out though, since your offense will be spies.

Aggressive Militarist: Crush all enemies!! In this strategy you need to use Super Ironclads, GW is helpful in the "crusaders can do everything' phase. Get to fundamentalism and espionage. Assuming you have mikes for money, don't forget the power of spies, and that the solution is always more howitzers. Tips: if you're trying to conquer quckly, you can't afford to dilly-dally as much as an expansionist. You need to building soldiers, not marketplaces or granaries. Aslo, some units are inefficient, e.g. destroyer, early cruiser, marine, helicopter, more than a couple marines, more than a couple tanks. The units you will conquer with: Early, elephants and archers. medieval, crusaders. renaissance, ironclad, caravels: there are better things to research than magnetism for a militarist, so just steal it), musketeers, and diplomats. 19th century, RAILROADS!! think of engineers as an offensive unit. build fortresses outside cities and rail artillery. Often, it can be a good idea to give away railroad so that the enemy will link up his cities for you...get machine tools and industrializtion. Modern. AEGIS, transport, 8 howitzers. You'll win every (almost)time.
Endgames: TOTAL WORLD DOMINATION!

	11-04-2000 22:46									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

...or a hybrid of Perfectionist/Militarist: Build those 6-10 cities including 1 super science city, build defenses to protect them for a long time, build temples, get the science city wonders or improvements, and get Sun and Leo. That way, you will not be behind tech-wise and you will usually have superior military units. Use them to capture/steal techs and wonders. Supplement that with building a million caravans to instantly build the key wonders and many, many diplomats and spies to help conserve those vet units. Later in getting SoL, you can go different ways to win. Not much more is needed.

For me, the best strategy is to use the Perfectionist model to get ahead in techs for the purpose of having superior military units to clobber the enemies.

	12-04-2000 22:13									#21
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Much obliged, Seeker, Steve, I appreciate your time and effort, and your advice will be invaluable, I'm sure, both long and short-term.
I seem to be more or less on the track you've both indicated,in my present game-now at 920 A.D. playing on a world map based on Blighty...I've done this before, in Chieftain, and have been impressed with how few initial cities can create a powerhouse of a civ, decades down the road. I've only 6 cities in U.K. and Europe, so far, have them, (mostly) walled, and manned by 3 phalanxes, building caravans like there's no 2000 a.d.,got me Magellan's now I can emigrate to Canada(!), with all its resources, and easy- going Sioux. I always go for Leo, hadn't considered the Academy, but will do so, for this game, certainly. Caravans seem to be key. I am an expansionist by inclination, but will adapt as best I can along the lines indicated by you both
Thanks again, chaps.

	14-04-2000 09:41									#23
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Neon, can have you ever put your research lab to work to confirm the multiplicative bonus claimed by the manual and by Sieve Too? As I posted above, a non-vet Art beat a vet Alp fortified in a mountain, which is 10/36 odds if bonus is multiplied. It would NEVER happen with HP at 2. So either bonus is added, or the Art was another super unit.

BTW, John Vanbiesbrouck is a sieve too.

	13-04-2000 22:53									#24
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I tested the theory many moons ago. I gave all units 10, i.e. 100, hit points to lessen the chances for random number bias. Horsemen lost everytime.

quote: a non-vet Art beat a vet Alp fortified in a mountain

Artillery has firepower of 2 while the Alpine has fp of 1. Artillery only needs to win 10 rounds while the Alpine must win 20 rounds.

quote: BTW, John Vanbiesbrouck is a sieve too

Indeed! How come it's only ever Canadians that understand my moniker?

	14-04-2000 04:13									#25
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Mad,
Non vet arty won 10 times out 100
but that was against vet alpine troops on a
mountain not fortified. (ill run it again later fortified)

	18-04-2000 09:02									#26
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Sieve - that darn 2 FP slipped right through my 5-hole. Makes the result possible, as Neon (thanks!) shows- although fortified the alp would probably lose 3/100, thats like rolling snake-eyes.

Because I AM CANADIAN. *beavers in background slapping tails on the water*

Looks like Tom Barrasso is a sieve too!

	26-04-2000 05:22									#27
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One thing I like to do is to get a battleship and keep bombarding an AI city. The AI never leaves a city undefended, so it keeps buying a new unit every time. This is extremely bad for the AI's economy. But, this only works before Rocketry. (I think we all know why.)


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Long live the Communists!
-- SilverDragon
[This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited April 25, 2000).]