13-04-2000 19:59									#1
	Building roads for trade. Enter the AD-FREE zone

This is generally for people who play against the AI; I think the situation in MP would be different.

Having discovered the vast difference in economic benefit between trading with your own cities as against trading with foreign cities, I then come up with the problem of how to get to those cities.

If they're not located on or near a coastline, I can't just send my Caravan/Freight by ship. An overland route at one square per turn takes up a lot of time.

So I've been building a lot of roads and even railroads into forewign territory, soetimes right to the cities in question.

I realize that this gives them a bit of advantage, since they don't have to build these sections of roads themselves. But I personally, at least in the game I'm presently doing, have found it very much worth the trade-off.

Any other opinions?

Jim W

	13-04-2000 20:16									#2
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Jim
please check this post: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum1/HTML/001139.html

I myself try to max out the per-turn value of traderoutes. I do this by establishing traderoutes with the biggest foregin city with most 'raw' trade-arrows per turn.
A prime trading city would be a foreign coastal city on another continent or island with the Collosus and situated on a river.
I send all my caravans to just one city. If the respective civ is my ally i'll send in foodcaravans to max out its size too. The -1 food can be eliminated by replacing the food-route with a regular traderoute.
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ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

[This message has been edited by AkwaticDudeCity (edited April 13, 2000).]

	14-04-2000 05:43									#3
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I'm not sure I understand this. If two or three cities are demanding gems, for instance, what would be the point of sending a Caravan of gems to a city that wasn't demanding them? Surely you wouldn't get the same amount as you would from a city that _was_ demanding them?

Or have I missed sometning?

Jim W

	14-04-2000 05:48									#4
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very large trading cities give nice bonuses for caravans regardless of the demanded commodities...... now the amount isn't as big as the cities demanding it of course but if it is a major player, then you can reap huge rewards anyways...... especially if the city is on a different continent, ie multicontinent trading.

Best bet is always the city that demands it but if you have repeat commodities, send them somwhere big and the money is more than worth it

	14-04-2000 11:43									#5
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Actually, the original question was whether or not it was a good idea to build roads into foreign territory to facilitate your own trade.

However, this is an interesting thought,, which I will keep in mind.

Thanks,

Jim W

	14-04-2000 14:38									#6
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Well... no, i don't think building roads into enemy territory to facilitate you own trade is a good idea. It'll cost you time and resources to build the road while for the same, probably less, you could build transports and ship the caravans to other continents making even more gold w/o aiding the enemy by building them roads.
About cities not demanding goods, i don't give a rat's arse i'll establish the traderoute anyway. I didn't do any calculations about this but i did notice cities on the same continent demanding a good very often 'pay' less than a far off big city on another continent which does not demand the good. Besides, to me the per-turn value of a traderoute is slightly more important than the immediate pay-off. It also makes for easy micro managing to send all your caravans to just one big city on another continent. No more messing with the trade advisor who tells you when a caravan is produced that city X demands good Y, but by the time the caravan gets there city X no longer demands good Y, but good Z.

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ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

	14-04-2000 17:44									#7
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It never fails that the demand disappears from a city. If it takes 10 turns to get a gold caravan to a city and then they no longer demand gold, they get it anyway. Wasting time is the same as wasting money & beakers. Instead of building roads, use the settler for road building and irrigation around your cities and target coastal cities and "non-hazardous" landing areas on foreign and hostile continents for your sea travelling caravans.

	14-04-2000 17:51									#8
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This notion of sending to just one large trading city is quite a revelation. Wish I'd known of it before.

Can you clarify one thing: how do you judge "large" -- population is easy but were you alluding to some other criterion?

Thanks

	15-04-2000 05:08									#9
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The formula for evaluating exactly how much you extract from establishing a trade route can be found at http://ltswww.epfl.ch/~winkler/civ2.html

________________
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[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited April 14, 2000).]

	15-04-2000 06:05									#10
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This is fine, if you've got the Lighthouse and all, or you have caravels. If you're still in the trireme stage, though, you have to go around the coastlines, and by the time you get there, it's very late.

Yes, I trade to other continents when I can, but for a long time it's more immediately profitable to trade with a foreign cities on the same land-mass. It also seems to me to be smart to build roads; sure, the Bad Guys get some benefit from your work, but unless things go badly against you in the random numbers inside the puter, enough of the benefit is on your side.

My biggest problem is that games take so long that by the time I get into another game, I've forgotten a lot of lessons I learned the last time. SLE has fogged my memory a bit.

Jim W

	17-04-2000 03:00									#11
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A question about trade routes....

I've watched the AI and its trade routes [captured cities or just investigated cities] and most of the time when a city has more than one trade route they are all established with different civs...

i.e. 1 trade with Romans, another with English and the last with Egyptians.

Is the benefit of trade routes more if you trade with different civs than solely one?

Eddy

	17-04-2000 16:50									#12
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The SGs in concert? Is that available on CD?

	17-04-2000 20:41									#13
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Eddy, it doesn't matter as long as it is a different civ. A lot of things are figured into the equation, and you do get credit for trading with a civ besides your own. So don't worry, if you can find one civ that demands your goods... go for it.

	18-04-2000 09:36									#14
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My two cents:
When you establish a trade route you lose any surplus science beyond what is needed for the next discovery. Because of this, it is far more efficient to CONSISTENTLY deliver a bunch of less profitable caravans (ie every single turn) than it is to deliver a few huge ly profitable caravans on an intermittant basis. For this reason, if I find a decent sized foriegn city that repeatedly demands the same trade commodity (See http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000231.html) I will almost always build roads and railroads for the AI in order to help me reach that city, rather than trade with a larger, possibly wealthier city that is harder to reach.

Adam Smith
A PBS mind in an MTV world.

	18-04-2000 03:54									#15
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Dave V - Available at all good audio stores now! We formed the duo when the Spice Girls fired us
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SG (2) - solo

	18-04-2000 05:18									#16
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To answer the question: no, I don't think it is good tactics to build a road into AI territory to speed up trade. Often a settler deep in AI land is picked on to start a war. Build roads and improve your own territior instead of helping the AI. Early on, trade routes do not generate much(if any) trade for small cities. If I have collossus and a science city, I work hard to deliver three caravans from that city to an AI city. (on a different continent if possible)

	19-04-2000 03:48									#17
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You can make sure you don't lose surplus science.
When my caravans arrive in their ships i don't use them all at once. I check my science advisor and depending on how much research i have and how much research i expect to gain from a particular caravan, decide which traderoute gets established which turn.
More accurately, if after establishing a traderoute that has provided me enough research to get an advance the next turn and i still have caravans parked in front of the city, i have them skip a turn.
Obviously you do need the Lighthouse for transcontinental trade in the pre-caravel era, so make sure you have it if that kind of trade is your intention. I myself don't perform that much pre-caravel trade. I do build the caravans though, but keep them stacked and send them away when there are caravels or better transports available. Which is usually very soon after the first caravans are built on account of me only building caravans after all available 1 gold/turn improvements and a colloseum are present in the particular city.
To find out what cities are large enough, keep an eye on the Top 5 cities list, especially in the pre-wonder era. Then attempt to find and/or contact the particular civ and exchange maps.
Another reason to keep all your trade focused on one foreign city is that the respective civ will not benefit too much from your trade.

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ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

	23-04-2000 18:27									#18
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Some good points around!

ADC's tactic of delaying arrival of a trade if U R near the end of a research cycle = very smart. In fact, if in doubt, i'll emphasize research for that turn to ensure the current advance finishes... don't like my caravans hanging around others' cities too long ya-know.

I'm with Jim tho as far as building roads to others. Not just trade units can move along transportation networks... if U get my drift. Somewhere along the route there will be a good defensive position to set up an outpost against military units &/or diplo's from sneaking into your civ w/o U knowing it. Preferably this is closer to THEM than to U. Always keep in mind the end game (someONE has to win).

Of course in so many MP games... it never GETS TO the end game.
=========================================
Q: Does anyone trade with enemies in MP games? Especially sea-drops into nice big coastal cities on other continents?

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"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited April 23, 2000).]

	23-04-2000 20:56									#19
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I do not establish trade routes with other civs.

Why?

Simply put, I will give no trade arrows to any enemy civ for his revenue or science production. Ever.

I would rather give those trade arrows for the destination to my own civ. I'll give up the higher money reward and few extra trade arrows to get trade arrows in two of my own Civs. The destination city gets trade improvements without having to build a carvan on it's own. In addition, trade within my Civ happens faster, meaning I get several turns with trade instead of watching my Galleon splish splashing across the ocean hoping it doesn't get sunk.

Trade with an ally? What's an ally?

Venger

	24-04-2000 07:57									#20
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Akwatic, and Others:
Of course you can delay the arrival of your caravans for a turn or two to get the next advance. But then what? Your next arriving transport is several turns away, and you are stuck. If you set it up right you can run off one discovery per turn for 15-20 turns. But to do this, you need reliable transport, and that often means building roads or rails in AI territory. Of course you have to choose your friends. Would I try this with the Babylonians, Chinese, Americans, or Egyptians? Sure. Greeks, Zulus, Mongols, or Vikings? Not likely.

Venger:
Consider this situation with 40-50 turns to go in a game. You establish a trade route with the AI, giving your city and their city 10 arrows per turn, and giving you a trade bonus of 1000+ coins and science. If you establish a route with your own cities your bonus might be a quarter of that. I will happliy trade with the AI under those or almost any other circumstances.

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"I fear that I shall die a Prince."
-Edward VII, Prince of Wales

	24-04-2000 18:43									#21
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I forgot to mention this. Roads within your city's radius will not only increase 'raw' trade, but also the per-turn value of a traderoute.
Also, for the per-turn value of a traderoute, it doesn't matter how far the continent you're trading with is. Better yet, it doesn't even have to be a real continent. An island will do just as well.

Adam Smith
What do you mean: 'and then what?' Then you keep on playing. There's also the regular science you know . And in case you didn't notice, i was referring to sea-borne trade. I don't even bother with land-based trade.
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ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?
[This message has been edited by AkwaticDudeCity (edited April 24, 2000).]

	24-04-2000 18:51									#22
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Trading with hostile civs, both early and late, is exactly why I feel the Great Wall and U.N. are almost 100% necessary when you are in a tech tree race trading game. Before the expiration of the GW, I feel pretty safe in trading with other civs, that is as long as there has been contact. The last thing anyone needs is a ship with 2-3 caravans being destroyed by a rival civ who doesn’t know who you are as you near their coast.

The trade benefits with trading with a large rival civ city are just too great to not take advantage of it. That is especially true with the SCC. Unlike Venger, I almost never trade within my own civ and continent. If one of my large colonies is needing something then they get it. But otherwise, my trade routes are with other civs.

	25-04-2000 04:32									#24
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I see the AIs build marketplaces, but libraries tend to be rare, and the higher order econ. buildings rarer still; I've seen a University only once. I always nail Mike's, JSB, and Shake's; as a result, my lux is always around 20% (to get WLT*D), while the AIs are at 30% or greater (just to keep out of disorder). Trade routes give an equal amount to both cities, true, but thanks to the above, I benefit much more than the AI.

That's MY delta...

	25-04-2000 04:45									#25
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I setup domestic routes early and more lucrative foreign routes later.Almost always deliver by sea.

If I build a road from my civ to an ai civ it won't be caravans headed for them

	25-04-2000 06:08									#26
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I had not totally ignored the fact that roads run both ways; I'm dumb in many ways, but that isn't one of them.

On any road that runs through, or even into, foreign territory, I have somebody sitting in a fort, preferably on a hill, and even more preferably at a choke point, demanding passwords, countersigns, and all that good stuff I learned about in Basic Training. (Canadian Army,(Reg)).

Jim W

	25-04-2000 08:31									#27
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Venger:

quote: Discovering every 3 turns does me no good if my enemy does as well.

A discovery every three turns? Maybe thats the problem. By trading with foreign cities you can run off a discovery every single turn, for 15 or 20 turns. That is more than enough delta for me or anybody else.

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"I fear that I shall die a Prince."
-Edward VII, Prince of Wales
[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited April 24, 2000).]

	25-04-2000 18:52									#29
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Venger:

You can get one discovery per turn starting about the time you get Corporation and continuing pretty much up to the time you land on AC. You can do this either with the Repeated Commodity Trade Strategy http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000231.html or Xin Yu's Two Continents Trade Strategy http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000096.html In either case you pretty much need to have the Corporation advance to get the increased trade bonus and greater mobility associated with Freight units. Once you are establishing several trade routes per turn you can set science to whatever you like. You will have more than enough money to build/buy a space ship, and still have plenty left over to go shopping for foreign cities.

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"I fear that I shall die a Prince."
-Edward VII, Prince of Wales
[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited April 25, 2000).]

	26-04-2000 00:38									#30
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Once you have superhighways, you almost have to try not to get one advance per turn if you have a decent trade system going. Personally, I don't think this issue is even close, regardless of what the ai is doing in its own cities, but don't forget that just because YOU don't set up trade routes with ai cities doesn't mean the ai won't set up its own routes. So your refusal to trade with the ai cities ends up costing you 50% of the delivery gold bonus and 50% of the delivery science bonus, all to avoid giving the ai something it will probably get in many cases anyway.