23-04-2001 08:55									#1
	MD - Apolyton Conflict: A few comments. Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I have just finished talking with Magellan and M_A_C concerning our present situation with MD. From the conversation it is clear that Castle Gobs will be punished for repeated spy attempts. In the case of MD spy attempts are considered as provoking as attacking with missles. I then learned that this conflict was posted to Alliance Talk on Swirve.net... this is definately not the appropriate method to deal with the Foreign Affairs of two clans. In the future we need to design a method and person to deal with FA. Because of this going to Locutus now may be a large uphill battle..... Whoever did this please admit to it and take a punishment fitting so that we can repair relations.... while I may sound like I am giving to the MD demands, I believe that it is in our best interest for this reset and for future ones to develop relations with some of the big guns and not piss off a fellow Apolytoneer like Locutus. As for now this war must be suspended pending a conversation with Wouter, but given the full nature of this conflict now it may be impossible to solve amicably.

We need to deal with FA in a more unified matter and not deal with AT, if nothing else this is what we have learned. Also spy ops are considered an act of aggression against MD players.

	23-04-2001 09:43									#2
	Support Apolyton

OmniGod, I cannot understand you now. This is what you said in the news thread:

"The difusing attacks were a good choice and acceptable... Here is the report on the offending nation, I agree that I should have spy attacked and in the future I may..."

Defusing a few missiles does only a small fraction of the damage caused by the PS strike that was retaliated, let alone damage caused by a missile attack. If they don't want to be hit by covert ops, they should build spies, just like one builds turrets to defend against strikes. If we aren't allowed to do that, we are doomed as a small clan. If it is a choice between either endlessly being trampled by the big clans without being allowed to respond, or growing to be an exact copy of them, forced to use unfair rules ourselves in order to survive, I will stop playing.

I was the one bringing the matter to the board. I was asking for opinions about what people think is fair, so that I could learn more about the game and prevent similar disasters in the future.
Aside from the usual emptyheads who just wanted to shout "boo", I got two serious reactions from people who questioned MD's behaviour (one of them an Omega member), plus both Waser MD (MD's general) and Locutus who tried to mispresent the facts - they failed because the MD player who had declared war on me posted the entire conversation we had had in the game after his attack, which clearly proved that Roman Alliance had accepted retribution. The MD player in question followed up by declaring peace with me. I think that is what pissed them off in the end, not my post on the board.

Not a bad word was spoken by me in the entire thread. If you would take a look at the average content of posts on the alliance forum, you will also quickly learn that they don't react to abusive posts in the same manner as they are doing to my well-founded reasoning. They are just bullying me, because they can't win the argument, that's what it comes down to.

Here is an overview of the entire conflict (so far):

Act 1
-----
SS Roman Alliance (#472) 0/14497/0 3027/7559/0 mehuled
Demoralized troops Roman Alliance (#472)
PS Roman Alliance (#472) 2617/18,585/2293 2595/6482/0 191a 88b 51t 116f
Roman Alliance (#472) accepts retribution

Act 2
-----
MDs Carnivorous Sheep (#3079) attempted to Spy 2x
MDs Carnivorous Sheep (#3079) invaded, defenses held 3110/27,617/2123 2000/28,800/1607
Defended ApolytonAlpha from God of Death EH (#4360) 777/6903/204 won
MDs jet flying sheep master (#6098) attempted to Spy
MDs jet flying sheep master (#6098) declared war
MDs jet flying sheep master (#6098) invaded 5636/26,067/2348 0/44,764/1024
365a 172b 1696t 6628d
Declared war on Roman Alliance (#472)
Sabotaged 1x, 1/1/1 missiles Roman Alliance (#472) defused
SS Roman Alliance (#472) 5871/12,705/2469 362/5334/0 190a 80b 448t $348K 1100f

Act 3
-----
SS MDs Sheep ShacK Blues (#6401) MD Tempest is Watching You (#3723) 154 A
DeathSHEEPSatPeriscopeDepth (#671) sabotaged 11x, 9 missiles defused
Sheep That Fight Back (#4882) invaded 314a 144b 1331t $3.6M 17/18,942/7 0/32,164/0
Great Mass Debating Country (#5846) MD invaded 298a 101b 1800t $70K 833f
1822/16,322/1105 2565/21,290/1506
Sabotaged 2x, 1/1/0 missiles Great Mass Debating Country (#5846) defused

Act 4
-----
MDs Sheepherder (#7794) sabotaged 6x, 0/3/0 missiles defused
Beware the Sheep (#14985) invaded, defenses held 1571/14,213/897 0/25,945/0
MDs MassDebater (#5384) invaded 142a 65b 1379t $536K 3105f 1937/17,524/1106 0/46,460/0
MDs MaKo (#6363) invaded 144a 65b 1467t $554K 3113f 1249/11,302/713 0/46,353/0
MDs MaKo (#6363) invaded 136a 61b 1451t $537K 2914f 1196/10,816/682 0/46,836/0
MDs MaKo (#6363) invaded, defenses held 666/6029/380 0/39,740/0
Bionic Sheep MD (#7745) attempted to Military Spy 2x
Bionic Sheep MD (#7745) invaded, defenses held 849/7684/485 5597/12,802/1399
Bionic Sheep MD (#7745) invaded, defenses held 519/4700/296 6304/11,906/1555
SS Great Mass Debating Country (#5846) MD Castle Gobs (#2681) Apolyton 95A
SS Great Mass Debating Country (#5846) MD Castle Gobs (#2681) Apolyton 92A
SS Great Mass Debating Country (#5846) MD Castle Gobs (#2681) Apolyton 62A
SS Great Mass Debating Country (#5846) MD Castle Gobs (#2681) Apolyton 60A
SS Great Mass Debating Country (#5846) MD Castle Gobs (#2681) Apolyton 25A

Please note that in this entire conflict only Eternal has come to my aid by sending some missiles to DeathSHEEPSatPeriscopeDepth (#671), the rest of the clan stood idly by.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited April 23, 2001).]

	23-04-2001 09:50									#3
	Tired of ads?

BTW so far they have attacked me 13 times, the barrage is still continuing.
They don't see a problem with defusing all MY missiles again. As Locutus said: this is standard practice for MD. But if someone does it to them, they call for the cavalry.

Edit: make that 20 times, all for the loss of two missiles.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited April 23, 2001).]

	23-04-2001 14:46									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Here is the poll I placed on the forum about covert ops as a retal.

Ribannah
Member
Apr 23rd 2:57 AM
What do you think about covert ops as a retal for a landgrab,
as an alternative to a suicide attack?

I tried it out yesterday, defusing a couple of the invader's
missiles. I haven't tried any other spy ops yet. These were
the reactions:

T1E: no problem
RAGE: no problem
MD: 20 attacks on my country (at giant losses for them
*grin*)

Johnny Demonic
Member
Apr 23rd 3:04 AM
well, which do you prefer, a missile retal or a spy retal?

Ribannah
Member
Apr 23rd 3:06 AM
Johnny, I don't do missile retals.

Johnny Demonic
Member
Apr 23rd 3:21 AM
well, i hate it when somebody disables my missiles in the
same way i hate being grabbed...

Ribannah
Member
Apr 23rd 3:23 AM
That is the intention of a retal
How about doing it yourself to someone big who just took
your land?

Dstreever
Member
Apr 23rd 3:24 AM
I think it's an okay policy, what STEAMS me is in Tourney...
even in top level games, where's it's obvious I'm not a
newbie, these complete morons grab me then defuse my
missilies, like I'm going to nuke them for a single landgrab.

Grow up idiots! If I'm in the top 50 I'm PROBABLY not a
FRICKING IDIOT...

David, letting loose some real angst tonight on AT.

Dstreever
Member
Apr 23rd 3:26 AM
Hey, I posted in your thread, go check out mine ;-)

The mods even censored parts of my thread! (This is how you
know it is a good thread of course...)

David, feeling like Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes...

Ribannah
Member
Apr 23rd 3:35 AM
Yeah, I already noticed that there is something strange
about the moderators in this place ...

Brett
Member
Apr 23rd 3:49 AM
PoW will not accept spy retals
Although I would personally rather get 1 spy op on me as a
retal than get SS'd for alot of land

Herc
Member
Apr 23rd 3:52 AM
Unknown will accept most kinds of retals (ill leave that
ambigious enough to warrent us retaling on whatever you
choose hehe)

Herc
1441516
Unknown FA

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited April 23, 2001).]

	24-04-2001 00:13									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I think this is grossly unfair towards Riba, AFAIK she didn’t start this, she hardly retaliated in a disproportional manner and there’s no point in punishing here since she’s the first one willing to stop this.

Omnigod, could you please try to convince MD to let this rest without further aggressions or damage being done?

Castle Gobs, I’ve send over $1.5million in aid to support you and I’ll send further packages as long as my finances allow it.



[This message has been edited by Colon (edited April 23, 2001).]

	24-04-2001 01:58									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Here is the discussion I had with Locutus concering the MD-Apolyton Conflict:

quote: hi, firstly thank you for being kind enough to contact me to resolve it. We consider HARMFULL spy ops acts of agression because they do damage (like you defused missiles, which harms our nation). we do not consider opr retal spy ops like the regular spy or market spy or military spy. asince those are only used to get information. but when you use spy ops like defuse missiles or demoralize, then we will retal those. Also, thank you for your apology about your member posting on AT. MD take offense when people "air our dirty laundry" on AT, so to speak. We prefer to deal with problems in private, via email or icq. AT is a big no -no in doing Fa related problems. I have just removed ALL your membrs from our enemy list, they will receive NO futher attacks from us anymore. Believe me when i say we have no wish to kill you at all. That is not our intent at all. But we will defend ourselves. however, one of your memebrrs launched alot of missiles at one of our members, which is totally unacceptable. We are forced to kill this nation for those attacks, which did great damage. This is the nation called: Tempest is Watching You 3723 and we are killing it for the following attacks: Apr/21/01 16:16 CM Tempest is Watching You (#3723) (Apolyton) DeathSHEEPSatPeriscopeDepth (#671) (MD) 3942 C / 134 B Apr/21/01 16:16 CM Tempest is Watching You (#3723) (Apolyton) DeathSHEEPSatPeriscopeDepth (#671) (MD) 4531 C / 140 B Apr/21/01 16:16 CM Tempest is Watching You (#3723) (Apolyton) DeathSHEEPSatPeriscopeDepth (#671) (MD) 5208 C / 146 B Apr/21/01 16:16 CM Tempest is Watching You (#3723) (Apolyton) DeathSHEEPSatPeriscopeDepth (#671) (MD) 5987 C / 152 B Apr/21/01 16:16 NM Tempest is Watching You (#3723) (Apolyton) DeathSHEEPSatPeriscopeDepth (#671) (MD) 286 A Apr/21/01 16:16 NM Tempest is Watching You (#3723) (Apolyton) DeathSHEEPSatPeriscopeDepth (#671) (MD) 307 A Apr/21/01 16:16 NM Tempest is Watching You (#3723) (Apolyton) DeathSHEEPSatPeriscopeDepth (#671) (MD) 330 A Apr/21/01 16:16 NM Tempest is Watching You (#3723) (Apolyton) DeathSHEEPSatPeriscopeDepth (#671) (MD) 355 A which is, as you can see unacceptable. however as i said, we want no fight with your clan, we will kill this nation then move on with what we did before. I wish you good luck in your game, and hope to see no futher acts of agression between our two alliances. thank you, Locutus President MD --- "Richard Saari" > wrote: >Can you tell me the number of hits left on any of my members as of today? My >clan has put their weapons on hold for the present... but the question >remains why spy ops are considered "acts of agression" by MD since without >them there is no gain in other nation information. > >On a side note, I was informed that the posting on AT, which I was unaware >of, caused a little distress to you and your clan. This was a newbie mistake >and she has been spoken to... I care not to punish her since it seems you >are more than willing to. > >Thanks >Omni >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Emiel Schuurman" >To: "Richard Saari" >Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 2:46 AM >Subject: Re: MD - Apolyton Conflict Resolution... > > >> hello, >> >> I am the president of MD, yeah. (our site is @ md.gamerstown.com). >> >> I have no wish to have to kill of your members, but they are continueing >agression towards us, launching missiles and doing destructive spy ops. We >must protect our members from such actions, and we do inform your members >that our hits are retals for the acts of agression commited by them. >> Yet your members seem to continue. If you can make your members stop >hitting us, then we will simple carry out the final few hits as punishment >and move on. >> >> Locutus

	24-04-2001 05:39									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Cowards. I didn't have a "fit of rage" as it has been callsed by someone, I made a justifiable response to the diffusing of Castle Gobs's missiles. I would have launched two more to make it even if I had them. If destructive spy ops justify retalliation, you'd think MD would understand. Or perhaps I made some kind of mistake in who I attacked, but someone in MD had to get missiled.

	24-04-2001 09:27									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I termed it a fit of rage because it's not the normal response. An attempt at diffusing the situation through diplomacy or a few SS attacks is normal since you were not in any direct jeopardy from diffusing attacks, and Ribs spy retals were more than enough retal initially... either way this got blown way out of proportion and I personally am glad it is ended. Win or lose, Ribs response I believe was okay for most clans other than MD... the multi missle attack would have put anyone on the death list with any clan.

	24-04-2001 09:33									#10
	Put an end to popups!

I didn't notice any omegans posting on your thread on AT, Ribs...
Nothing doing tho...

You folks handled that fine... and you seem to be stirring things up

OMNI: You seem to be taking charge of this thing, YAY!

I'll help you however I can...

	24-04-2001 12:15									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

The MD player whose two missiles I defused has just told me that he found it a fair retal. But when he was ordered to farm me, he had no choice but to comply (and to lose some $40M of his military!). I have asked him to discuss changing policy within his clan.

OmniGod, could you tell me exactly at what time the war on my country was called off, because I was attacked again, shortly after 07:00 yesterday (April 23):

Roman Alliance (#472) attempted to Burn Food Stores in your country!
Roman Alliance (#472) attempted to Burn Food Stores in your country!
Roman Alliance (#472) attempted to Burn Food Stores in your country!

Pretty stupid since he knew I have far more spies.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

	24-04-2001 16:28									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The war ended 14:20 April 23,2001... looks like Roman Alliance got it in before the end... lucky bastard Next time, retal his aggression.

	24-04-2001 18:54									#13
	Got spare money?

I stole some 200k food from one of MD's all-jetters. Burning it seems an awful waste.

	24-04-2001 20:25									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, I’m certainly relieved our conflict with MD is over.

Eternal, I feel sorry about your country, but I’m also a bit angry at you. While I can perfectly understand your actions and I realise you were trying to help you risked escalating this conflict while it was nearly defused.

	24-04-2001 23:35									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If the conflict had escelated maybe we could have done some real damage, scored some real gains in reputation. Besides I didn't know anything was nearly defused. All I ever heard out of anyone was Castle Gobs saying he was being repeatedly attacked. So I took appropriate measures to salvage our clan's honor.

	24-04-2001 23:57									#16
	Support Apolyton

At the end of the day, they have suffered more damage than we did, and may remember that the next time they think of bullying us. I basically agree with you, Eternal, we should show some teeth.

First, however, we should decide when which manner of biting is appropriate, and - this is very important - be consistent.

OmniGod, could you please make a proposal for a code of conduct? Once we have that, we can also let the other clans know what to expect from us.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

	25-04-2001 00:22									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Eternal, I understand what you're talking about, but I think you should restrain yourself a little more in the future and don't go one it alone.
You're right to say that people should know we don't let ourselves be toyed around, but getting a reputation of inconcistency and lack of discipline gets us nowhere either.
Your missile strikes at the time Omni was talking to MD about settling this (you could read it here) could have fallen really bad from their point of view. Think of Pearl Harbour.

To conclude, please don't please believe I loathed what you did, you tried to help and that's what we all should do for eachother.

I hope we've cleared this out.