03-05-2000 02:51									#1
	We Love the ***** Days Increase the size of your Attachments

In the manual, it says that every time the We love the .... days are celebrated, a certain special effect will happen per each form of government. I think that in a democracy, you automatically get one happy citizen added to a city. Correct? Also...

1)What happens when the We Love days are cancelled?

2) What happens on those celebrations for other governments, e.g. republics?

Any insights or responses appreciated.

	03-05-2000 03:03									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

when its cancelled you stop receiving the extra benefit.

The manual explains the effects of "we love" days.

page 73-old manual
pages 61-MGE manual

look in the index under "we love"

	03-05-2000 06:23									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I dont think it gives you happy people under a democracy. It just makes the pop grow

	03-05-2000 11:43									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Under Democracy and Republic it makes your population grow. I think I read somewhere that it had a trade-effect under Monarchy, but I'm not sure. I never go for "we love the king days"

------------------
Adopt, Adapt and Improve

	03-05-2000 16:56									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

For Fundamentalism you get one extra trade arrow in every square that already produces one. This not only means a boost for your economy, but also for your science.

------------------
ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

	03-05-2000 20:17									#6
	Suffering from ads?

The effects of WLT_D depends on the gov't type:

Anarchy: no effect
Despotism: city collects resources as a Monarchy
Monarchy, Fundamentalism, Communism: city collects resources as a Republic/Democracy
Republic, Democracy: city grows by 1 as long as there is a food surplus

The effects of WLT_D require 1 full turn to become effective, i.e. nothing happens until the end of the 2nd turn of the celebration. Thus, a city that celebrates for only a single turn gains no benefits.

Also note that WLT_D has no effect on corruption, bribery costs or "the riot factor".

	03-05-2000 20:39									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

As usual Sieve Too, perfect answer!

Marcel I (and others that don't use them)
You really should. In democracy or republic, you can grow your population in real short order and make big leaps on the power graph.
Just make sure that you have neccesary improvements in place to take advantage of it. Any happiness wonders or city improvements, plus market places, banks, stock market, will all help. Just jack your luxery rate up while in Democracy or Republic, and watch yourself leapfrog over other civs. In MP games, this makes a BIG difference. Against the AI, its a good way to avoid building graneries early. It's amazing what a difference it makes!

	03-05-2000 22:15									#8
	Put an end to popups!

Ming, would you say that WLT_D completely eliminates the need for granaries? And if so, also the Pyramids?

Interesting... I always build the Pyramids first (keep in mind, against the AI only). Maybe there is some other Wonder to build first, and use WLT_D later to catch up, regardless of granaries.



------------------
JERandall

	03-05-2000 22:41									#9
	Got spare money?

To an extent they do. If your going for a huge score and you wanted to play the whole time. Graneries in your cities after they reach about 12 would be good.
But if you just trying to get into space as soon as possible then just skip them all together.

	03-05-2000 22:43									#10
	Support Apolyton

Also build hanging gardens as it gives you one happy citizen automatically.
That will make it easier to get to WLT_D once you get mike's chapel.

	03-05-2000 22:57									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I can't remember the last time I built a granery or the Pyramids in a Civ Game. With Republic being so easy to get, you can start cranking up those cities to size in no time at all. In MP games, with population being the biggest factor in the powergraph, it's a must. Many players try to head straight to Republic and don't even bother with Monarchy.

I still take the traditional route to Monarchy firt, and then wait until I have the happiness wonders and some city improvements in place. Build graneries... why bother.
And just think of all those better wonders than the Pyramids

	03-05-2000 23:13									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

one plan for the Pyramids that seems to work fairly well is to build them then go straight for Democracy and the SOL.In MP most players go the religion route so you have a good chance for Leo's and SOL.
Then switch to Communism.Use the extra production and no corruption to build infastructure and set up trade routes

then at 20% or 30% luxuries,many of your cities will celebrate allowing republic level trade.Now your caravans are worth twice as much,your research is the same if not faster than 0 luxuries+ max science and you should be collecting approx 15-20% more gold than before.

Really,really easy to do with The Gardens.It can be done before 1AD at 1x production.

	04-05-2000 00:08									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Yeah, we beat the Pyramids debate to death. I think this thread clearly shows alternatives to granaries/pyramids, esp. in deity and MP games. Why people continue to insist on building pyramids is beyond me.

	04-05-2000 01:03									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

hehehe-if i use the plan above,what the heck do i need The Pyramids for?

seriously,the extra growth early helps more than I used to think.It really does.Doesn't mean The Pyramids are on top of my list yet.Worth another look though.They do help with Gov. forms other than Republic and Democracy.

I don't see any need at all if you play 2x production.Although you will get to hire specialists earlier.

	04-05-2000 01:05									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Hey Steve....... how are things..... i agree with what everyone states above as i am not an advocate of the pyramids either.

However, i do think that on a large map, pyramids with gardens and/or the wall is fabulous way to increase population early. However this is only necessary if you are on a huge continent, and wish to expand unmolested up to 100 plus cities, which as we all know is fun the first time and then really tedious after that.

Only arguement against this easy to win strat i can think of is that while your pumping out the 700 shields or so for these three wonders, you lose out on extra settlers, which in turn means lost cities.

But lets face it, WLTKD is a far superior strategy as it is faster and larger cities are proven to be alot better if you have enough of them, and the necessary wonders/traderoutes/infrastructure to back them up.

If not..... then i guess war cities are dangerous. I noticed in my last couple of losses, i was trying to hard to perfect my strategies, that in reality i was not doing the two things in MP that are most important.

Expansion, and troops in the field. In the continuing days of search and destroy, especially on small MP maps, you really do need to make sure you field an adequate army , and continually harass the other player. Pick off stray units , settlers, caravans, unguarded or stacked dips etc.... make him feel your presence and he shant be so quick to expand. Everyone expands quickly if left to their own devices.... but a few horses or chariots .... or even triremes with dips is enough to slow down even the best expansionist

------------------
Dont' let the name fool you, my policy is still the same..... War4ever.... damm where did i put that nuke

	04-05-2000 02:36									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

War4 my friend, it has been awhile! How's your baby? Has he got up to Warlord level yet?

You know, nothing in Civ2 is absolute (except perhaps getting to Monarch asap). With my limited city building strategy, I would much rather get started on building the Colossus and Sun Tzu wonders (and maybe the Great Wall if I feel like it). IMO, they are much more valuable use of the early resources before the start of building gazillion caravans ).

I didn't know about the pyramids in Civ1, that is very interesting. For the past few weeks, I've been devotely playing Pharaoh and reading alot of Egyptian history. The role of pyramids in that society is fascinating, but nothing in Civ1(?) or Civ2 comes close to modeling its purpose.

	04-05-2000 02:46									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

OK I have a question. I don't utilize we love the **** days as much as I should. Plus ming advocated going Rebublic ASAP. I always get the tech early but don't switch because of units in the field exploring. How do you eliminate the police penalty from exploring units to achieve WLT days in those cities? Granted once your cities are big enough the police hit isn't too bad (able to use specialist etc). But the problem is when I first switch to Rebublic or Democracy.

	04-05-2000 04:23									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Black Bart ... remember that in republic you are allowed one unit per city.... to explore ...... granted early republic can be difficult to master but heres a tip. Make the switch , increase lux to max..... and grow.....

Now this isn't the perfect way to do it but by growing every turn for the next five or so...... you go from size three to eight in that many turns thus giving more production and science along the way which makes building troops easier.

No point going republic or demo if you dont plan on using wltkd to grow.... the penalties on production aren't worth it otherwise.

Steve..... my son is doing well but i think he is still a chieftan

as for strats..... i like collosus and Suntzu better as well however for early easy aggressive expansion for newbies.... pyramids , wall and gardens is a must have until one properly realizes the benefits of the other wonders.

Yes the pyramids were far too powerfull in civ1...... SOL is a better time for this govt change stuff. However i think civ could do with out it or perhaps modify it so that if you have the tech for the govt, you dont' experience anarchy. I find SOL too powerfull in both SP and MP, especially if you own the happy wonders as well......

	04-05-2000 04:31									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Thanks, I was thinking Republic and Democracy had the same police penalties. Sometimes I have 2 exploring units from the same city. I'll probably just reassign them. This should definately help out by going Republic and getting up to size 8 and 12 quickly.

	04-05-2000 12:14									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Txs for your tip Ming, but I didn't mean to say I won't use the "we love the consul/president days" Just that I don't use it under other governments than Republic or Democracy.
Under the "lesser" goverments I haven't tried to crank up the luxury rate, because I guess it ain't very effective.
Anyway, if you use the "WLtXD", timing is important. Get the happiness wonders/improvements beforehand and be sure there are no food or other growth restrictions.


------------------
Adopt, Adapt and Improve

	04-05-2000 14:05									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I've got to argue with you Marcel I. As has been stated above, the benefits of WL*D in the 'lesser' governments can be impressive - take the time to run a few tests it takes two turns to play through - shove luxuries through the roof let the people be happy - this increases trade and therefore you no longer need the silly luxury rate - you can now bring luxuries down often to as low as 20%, but 30% will ussually do the trick and now a fair proportion of your cities will continue celebrating and your civilisation will benefit from higher production and science than it had before even though the rates are lower (because of the 'wasted' luxury rate).
Trust me! - Give it a try it is particularly beneficial when racing for techs in a small (in terms of number of cities) early monarchy and of course in fundy when it can put your science rate up to rival the perfectionist democracies!


------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	04-05-2000 15:54									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hi SG,

I guess I should be more open to try different tactics with different governments. Mostly I try to switch from Monarchy to Republic/Democracy ASAP. In Monarchy I divide my trade between Tax and Sci. I will try your approach in my next game

------------------
Adopt, Adapt and Improve

	17-04-2002 22:18									#24
	Put an end to popups!

Hello,

temporarily celebrating under representative governments to boost population growth for a few turns is a tool that I have used frequently and with great success. However, I have failed so far to make much use of the celebration rules under autocratic governments.

Leaving Despotism aside (in the beginning, cities are often too small to celebrate and anyway, Monarchy is not that far away), the mathematics of celebrating under Monarchy, Communism or Fundamentalism, described in an earlier post here, are convincing enough. It may take all of a city's trade to start the celebration, but once that is done, trade will (on average) double, so it is possible to have a continuous self-sustaining celebration with a luxury rate of 50 %. As soon as marketplaces have been built, it is possible to lower the rate below that point and have more trade available for taxes and science than without the celebration. As an added benefit, it is possible to put the entire non-luxury segment of trade into either taxes or science as the situation requires, thereby rendering the rate caps obsolete.

The reason why I find it difficult to earn this potential profit is my overall game situation when my civilization is ruled by an autocratic government. If I use Monarchy, Communism or Fundamentalism, it is either because I am expanding (on my original continent or overseas) or because I am at war. In both cases I often find myself with quite a number of cities that would require a much higher luxury rate to keep celebrating than my core cities. During expansion, the terrain around fringe cities cannot be developed quickly enough to allow trade production on every worked square. During wartime, I often reassign workers to the mines in frontline cities in order to build units (and end the war) more quickly.

This leaves me with the choice of setting the luxury rate either higher than necessary in my core cities or lower than necessary in my fringe cities. However, each trade arrow that is converted into luxuries without being both necessary and sufficient to keep the respective city celebrating is wasted. It is my impression from the games I have played that this waste of trade generally outweighs the 25 % - 50 % profit (depending on whether you have just a marketplace or a bank, too) that is theoretically associated with celebrations under autocratic governments.

I would very much like to use the powerful tool that the celebration rules have proven to be under representative governments in other game situations with similarly stunning effect, so please feel free to comment.

	17-04-2002 23:42									#25
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Your point is well made - but as long as you set your stall out appropriately the returns can be impressive - I favour Fundamentalist ICS and therefore set out to get happy Wonders and to build Mints (sorry some people call them Temples and Colosseums) with as many as 11 g in tithes from each of your core cities you can easily afford the multiplier improvements Marketplace, Bank, Stock Exchange it is quite common for me to be netting 2 to 4 thousand gold / turn - no improvement or Wonder (or AI civ )is too expensive - my trade routes (even minor local ones) are frequently in excess of 10 arrows/turn each celebrating in all bar a few really poxy cities is no problem.
My colleague SG(2) is a devout Communist and I'm sure he shall shortly post the glories of red tinted celebrating cities ...
Do try it - the celebrations are well worth it.

SG[1]

	18-04-2002 00:50									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

wasnt' this posted before as a crutch for the weaker player

just kidding....there is no doubt that WLT*D's are very powerfull and if done correctly can bring your empire from middle of the pack to the front runner.....

you dont' even need a happy wonder to run these little fellas either....thats the beauty.....

	23-04-2002 00:20									#27
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

One last advantage of Pyramids. Your cities get to size three faster so they can celebrate. (which is real good when you're building on tough terrain) And if you don't have any happy wonders and your infrastructure is a little weak, you won't be celebrating for long. Then Pyramids will help. Or when you switch to Commie, the Pyramids will help.

It's interesting to read from Ming two years ago saying he never built it in a MP game. NOW he considers it a good thing to have.
Things continue to evolve.

RAH

*Crutch* Yeah, gotta love it. Guess I'm a little weak.

	23-04-2002 03:07									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I like the pyramids. If I have it, the ai doesn't, and can't grow as fast. Also, there are times when you may need to run a food shortage if you are being attacked. The granary provides a cushion of food which will keep those settlers from being disbanded.
As soon as I get SOL, I go to democracy, and set luxuries to 60% and WLT*. I keep it there so long as most cities keep expanding. I then change to fundamentalism or communism to build infrastructure(markets, aqueducts, and harbors) with no shield loss. When enough have been built, I repeat the process. Happiness is not a problem with fundy or commie. If I need science, I use commie, If I need $ I use fundy.

	23-04-2002 22:08									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'm missing something in the mechanics here and hope someone can clarify. What I'm reading is this:

1. Increase the luxury rate very high.
2. As a result, trade increases, making people even happier.
3. Lower the luxury rate.
4. High trade continues, promoting WLT*D even at lower luxury.

Is that correct? If so, I don't understand. Why doesn't trade diminish when you reduce the luxury rate, thereby reducing happiness and ending WLT*D?

BTW, I do use WLT*D, usually in Democracy for city growth. Typically I wait until I have HG and Mich's, then push luxuries to 40% or 50%. I don't recall prolonged celebration any lower than that.

	23-04-2002 22:44									#30
	Tired of ads?

This is only for governments that aren't REP or DEMO

For the rest of the governments one of the bonuses for WLT*Ds is to get an the additional trade arrows as if you were at the next level of government. I.E. In monarchy, you would get the trade arrows as if you were in republic. Once you have started celebrating, your city is now reaping more trade arrows. AND will continue to untill it stops celebrating. A lower luxury % in this city will still reap the same number of trade arrows as before you started celebrating. Keeping the city celebrating. I hope that explains it.

RAH

Celebrating is a lot easier (and more prolonged with 3 good trade routes and marketplaces and banks in your cites)