22-05-2001 11:16									#1
	I can't believe civ doesn't have this #1: Technology decreases cost in shields Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well i have been thinking of civ3 often since so many previews have came out, and I just now thought of an Idea that I that should have already been incorporated into civ.

Certain technologies like construction, engineering, mass production, etc. should reduce the number of shields it takes to build something. Construction could for example make all buildings cost 10% less shields to produce. Mass production on the other hand could make all modern units cost 20% less shields to produce. This would have two VERY important side effects. This would tone down the effect of a very backward civ (come on people it's 1900 you have all of the tech discovered, and some AI controlled civ is just now getting steam engines) stealing your advanced technology and with a single tech being able to meet you on the battle field as an equal. This is a problem in civ games and it is SO CHEESY! They might be able to build stealth fighters now (yes it is still unrealistic) but it could cost maybe twice as much for that civ to build the same unit. This could help spread around goodies in the tech tree, and punish players who beeline for certain units.

Also this would allow units and buildings to get introduced into the game and not totally unbalance it. This could make for interesting strategic choices, do i build expensive tanks now or do continue to produce other units until tanks become more cost effective.

This idea is simple. Firaxis tags certain technologies to give them this effect.

This idea improves gameplay. It rewards players for having a greater mix of technology, thereby increasing the risks of beelining. Also it allows units and structures to come into the game at a high enough cost to allow a better balance between old and new technology.

What do you think?
i hope firaxis includes this idea in Civ3.

korn469

	22-05-2001 12:23									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Seems like a good idea, but it includes a lot of techs. Steam Engine, Railroad, Electronics, Computers, mass production, construction, engeneering, Iron working, masonry, Industrialization, Refining, etc.
Could be a possibilty to make every of these decrease 1% or 2% of the original shield cost.Would be effective when you have most of the techs.

	22-05-2001 20:05									#3
	Suffering from ads?

Sounds like a good idea. But, it would through the game balance off too much. And in order to compensate, they would hav to make a building start with more shields or something. Because each building/unit/wonder whatever, has a specific number of shilds to balance the game just right

	22-05-2001 21:02									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Korn, that's what improvements are for.

Knowing how to build something doesn't guarantee you have the resources or manpower on hand to build it quickly, i.e. shields. Technology gives you improvements, and you build improvements to give you shields, like a mill or factory. That's the process in Civ2, and it is doubtful they will cut improvements out of the loop in Civ3.

	22-05-2001 23:48									#5
	Hmmmmm..... I say "nay" Tired of ads?

This idea would fundamentally change the way the game works, but but ultimately have no effect on the game itself.

Let's think of the effects on game balance here:

The entire game is designed so that, as city productions naturally increase, structure/improvement production costs increase.

It's designed this way so you don't have people producing amazing upgrades instantly or near instantly in the later years.

So, let's suppose they implement your idea. They improve production as time goes on. The designers would ultimately find themselves balancing the game by increasing the production cost of later improvements/structures anyway (unless, of course, their end goal would be to make the game go faster in the later years).

So, how exactly would the game likely change with this modification? Answer: it wouldn't. The end result would be that the game play would remain exactly the same.

	23-05-2001 01:51									#6
	Re: Hmmmmm..... I say "nay" Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Frugal_Gourmet So, how exactly would the game likely change with this modification? Answer: it wouldn't. The end result would be that the game play would remain exactly the same.

It would make a difference, it would affect the techs you go for and prevent bypassing techs.

View it as a production penalty that is lifted when you obtain certain technologies. If you steal Tank Warfare but don't know about combustion then it ain't gonna be much use to you in building tanks. Hence you introduce penalty costs.

Penalty costs/Production bonuses, all depends or your viewpoint.

	23-05-2001 02:53									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Like I said, improvements accomplish this. Once you have a tach, you apply it through improvements, and it gives you production. Civilization is based off the idea of applying what your Civ learns... knowing iron working doesn't give you more ability to win wars automatically. You have to apply the tech with the units it provides, and then use them. Production should not be any different. Why shortchange improvements?

	23-05-2001 21:05									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm with cyclotron on this one.
it seems to me that higher techs generally increase the actual cost of building something, except it lowers it overall when you have the supporting infrastructure. Hence, the production increasing improvements.

without the infrastrucure neccesary to support the new tech properly, its actually cheaper to keep doing it the old way. to take advantage of the new tech, you need to upgrade and/or install equipment.
Master Of Orion dealt with this very prettily with the cost of "refitting" factories.

now, about Tank Warfare before getting Combustion , that's simple. you shouldn't be able to get a tech without having its prerequisite. In fact, that one needs a new thread. excuse me...

	23-05-2001 22:48									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Ok, I see what you mean.

There are situations though were improvements would be near immediate. Especially when its economic or scientific as opposed to applied technologies.

Lets say you have "trade" and you discover "banking". You change your trading system over time - you get to build bank improvements. Although, even if you don't build banks your new found knowledge would still be useful to your traders as they have a better understanding of whats going on. Wouldn't it?

	24-05-2001 02:38									#10
	We've suffered under Improvements long enough Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

We have suffered under improvements long enough.
Technology should make the shield # decrease marginally when you research certain techs.

You should also be able to build buildings, but building the improvements should not be necessary for a fast-producing city in the information age.

	24-05-2001 03:03									#11
	Support Apolyton

Yeah, perhaps the concept of on certain advances, certain things become a lot cheaper. For example later in the game the most basic base facilities become very cheap to construct, and perhaps even become automatic infrastructure...

	24-05-2001 03:15									#12
	Wow, some logic... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: We have suffered under improvements long enough.

Wow. So true. Just like we have suffered under units long enough. And techs. In fact, why not just be able to build stuff as a product of time? The tech tree is too complocated and causes the suffering of thousands daily.

DarkCloud, It's really cool when you back up what you say with actual reasons for it. Why don't you give it a try?