22-05-2001 11:21									#1
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I am trying this for the second time. I spent a lot of time writing this the first time and then it came up with an unspecified thread error.

Since my first thread some how mysteriously disappeared into the ether of the internet. I am going to continue it here. I am still working on my China invades Taiwan scenario and right now I am compiling a unit list a trying to make a decent map.

Instead of making an incredibly long and brain numbing list covering all the branches. I will just list the Airforce for now.

CHINA
fighters:
J-10 (under development)
J-7 FS (under development)
Su-30MK (under development)
J-12 (under development due in 2015)
FC-1 (under development)
J-11/Su27
J-8IIM
J-8
J-7/F-7
J-6
attack/bomber:
JH-7/FBC-1
A-5C/Q-5
H-6
transport:
IL-76B
Y-8C

TAIWAN
F-5E Tiger IV (under development)
Mirage 2000-5
F-16 Block 20 MLU
F-CK-1 IDF
F-5E
F-104G
attack/bomber:
F-16 Block 20 MLU
F-5E
transport:
C-130H

Japan
fighters:
F-1
F-2A
F-16C

U.S.
fighters:
F/A-18
Harrier
F-16 (?)
F-14 (?)
F-15 (?)
F-22 (?)
attack/bomber:
B-52
B-2

The ?'s above are just to show that I am not sure if I will use them.

The Japanese may also be cut. They have that whole no combat clause in their constitution. They have also said they would help defend Formosa fro any aggression. So it's up in the air.

As you can see I need to trim up my list a bit. I wish I could include them all.

	23-05-2001 00:07									#2
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I say an F-16 is an F-16, no need for them to have different types. Anyway I'm not sure of the exact roles you'll need for them, but China will be able to make due with only 2 interceptors, 2 fighter/bombers, and probably 1 bomber.

Taiwan only really needs 1 fighter and 1 ground attack fighter. I gave China so much because I imagine they're the protagonists, and also because they have dated equipment which will have to be taken into account.

Since I don't imagine US or Japan playing a sizeble ground role, they should probably have a couple more air units to compensate, but I think the US can lose the Harrier, we odn't have enough of them and they're not really all that special.

	23-05-2001 00:40									#3
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I see your point there on the F-16's. I can probably forget about fighters under development too. This is going to be set about 2005 and neither side would have enough of any new fighters to make a difference.

	23-05-2001 01:18									#4
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i think most of the US planes should be used. F-14 Tomcat is more a Navy fighter so they should be on all the carriers. I do believe the F-15E Eagle is more a bombing aircraft than fighter and the F-16C Falcon is the interceptor? The F/A-18 Hornet is all purpose. And as for the F-22 Raptor i do believe their is a prototype of this aircraft doing the rounds at the moment and as your setting it in 2005 they might even manage to scrounge a squadron of fighters out by then. So maybe a few units around at the start? Other than that im looking forward to this.

	24-05-2001 09:18									#5
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Jimmy, I've got a couple of suggestions for you:

Firstly, I sugest that you relpace the B-52 with the B-1. These days all B-52's are used for are to cart cruise missiles to thier launch points and making bombing raids in conditions of total air superiority. As Civ2 dosn't support air-launced cruise missiles, and the US would probably never be able to win air superiority over mainland China I think that the B-1 would make a better choice.

Secondly, acording to various aircraft mags & webpages, it appears that China is likely to ditch the J-10 in favour of more SU-27's and SU-30's

BTW how are you planning to use transport aircraft?

Last edited by Case on 24-05-2001 at 09:36

	24-05-2001 10:40									#6
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I would highly recommend the inclusion of the sub/cruise missile weapon system.

In any tactical scenario (war scenario, not civ scenario), the U.S. is going to make extensive use of cruise missiles. In reality these would be the air-launched variety (ALCM) or the sea-launched variety (TLAM). Within the civ paradigm, you're really limited to just having submarines launching these puppies (or units w/ the sub flag).

I would definitely consolidate these aircraft types as much as possible. In my scenario "Allied Force," I gave the U.S. a bunch of aircraft (the concept was to win with airpower only), and I tried to deliniate the roles as much as possible, but in the end, I think the plane types were too similar. My concept was something like this:

A-10, nil, 1, 12.,6, 12a,5d, 1h,3f, 28,0, 0, AFl
AH-64, nil, 1, 8.,8, 12a,4d, 1h,4f, 24,0, 0, CA
F-15, nil, 1, 32.,2, 14a,8d, 1h,4f, 40,0, 0, AFl
F-16, nil, 1, 23.,2, 13a,7d, 1h,4f, 32,0, 3, AFl
F-117, nil, 1, 26.,2, 14a,12d, 1h,4f, 46,0, 3, Sth
B-2, nil, 1, 32.,3, 18a,14d, 1h,5f, 62,0, 0, Sth
B-52, nil, 1, 42.,3, 16a,8d, 2h,5f, 54,0, 0, AFl
F-18, nil, 1, 25.,2, 12a,7d, 1h,4f, 32,0, 3, AFl
Cruise Missile, nil, 1, 36.,1, 24a,5d, 1h,4f, 10,0, 0, Roc


For instance, let's take Case's comments about bombers. Of the three primary bombers in service (the B-1, the B-2, and the B-52), the B-1 is dedicated to the nuclear deterrence role (in other words, it drops tactical nukes). Of the remaining two, they are so different, it's tough to consolidate them - from the stats above, you can see I tried to represent the toughness (more hit points) and greater range of the B-52 over the B-2. In game terms, however, it may work better to simply have one generic "American Bomber.'

The same principle applies to the other units as well. I had fighters remaining aloft for 2 turns (it was a large map), and bombers remaining aloft for 3 turns. And the A-10 and the AH-64 could remain aloft for significantly longer. But in the end, I think that the difference between a couple of these units was just too subtle and it impacted the playability of the game.

Just something to keep in mind.

Some of the graphics in this scenario may be of interest to you.

ALLIED FORCE SCENARIO

	24-05-2001 12:11									#7
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I was planning on just going with whatever could be in the region. I know B-52's are in Diego Garcia, but I don't know for sure what is stationed in Okinawa. I think that's just a marine base but not sure. I will check it out.

I ixnayed the B-1 originally because of it's main use as a delivary platform for tactical nukes. I was not planning on the U.S. attacking Mainland China except for some strikes on airbases along the coast and maybe some factories or something. I just want to represent the time it would take the U.S. to react and their apprehension towards letting the war escalate. I don't know about Bush though, hopefully he's out by then and we get a Prez who knows who Ziang Zieman is. ( I threw my vote away on Nader.)

In the scenario turns are going to be hours and you have, say three to four days to take the island. An idea I had was to have separate events files to represent night and day. This would be to represent China's shortage of night fighters. The majoriy of their airforce is outdated J-7 and J-6 fighters with less than capable avionics systems. China also has a shortage of inteligence aircraft like our AWACS to help guide their planes at night.

As for Subs, they are going to be included I just haven't gotten that for yet.

I really need to get my butt in gear and finalize a units list.

P.S. Please forgive any mis-spellings, the spell checker isn't working and I don't have the patient.

Last edited by Jimmywax on 24-05-2001 at 12:31

	24-05-2001 12:16									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Case Jimmy, I've got a couple of suggestions for you: Secondly, acording to various aircraft mags & webpages, it appears that China is likely to ditch the J-10 in favour of more SU-27's and SU-30's BTW how are you planning to use transport aircraft?

I will probably just go with those. Like I said before, I will probably forget about most of the stuff under development. Some I may still include though.

Transport: I have been told that if you make them a typical transport minus the movement points and give them the Paradrop flag. They will carry their units with them. I have yet to try this out though. So don't qoute me, I have no idea if it actually works. If it doesn't. Oh well, just more room for fighters.

Another idea I had was to have KC-135 tankers with lots of turns and the carrier flag. Then the planes wouldn't have to fly all the way back to base.

	24-05-2001 12:27									#9
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I just found a site on Okinawa military bases and found out that there is a little bit of everything there. Maybe I will pick one jet to represent each branch. I didn't see anything on bombers though, I will have to dig deeper.

	24-05-2001 16:59									#10
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Jimmy, B-52's regularly operate from Guam. During the Vietnam war hundreds of B-52's of the 8th Airforce [of WW2 fame] were based on Guam, and it remains a major bomber base to this day (I recently read that it's the only place outside the US where air launched cruise missiles are stored).
If something nasty was to happen to Guam, Darwin Airport in Australia has a very long runway especially designed to take B-52's, and Australia has an agreement with America permitting the operation of B-52's out of Darwin at any time.

Last edited by Case on 24-05-2001 at 17:09

	24-05-2001 22:54									#11
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Thanks Case, now I just have to figure out where Gaum is compared to Taiwan. The map I am working on is big, but of a small area. It will be all of Taiwan and the South Eastern Chinese coast. If they are close enough I will place whatever islands are relevant or maybe just placed them on the edge of the map.

Hey MOH, can I bother you for those links that show Military strengths. I thought I had it bookmarked by I guess not. Then my first thread disapeared so I am SOL.

	25-05-2001 22:24									#12
	Remove this text

*Bump* just bumping hoping MOH see's it.

	27-05-2001 07:02									#13
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LMAO!!! Bumped for me?!?!?!



Are you sure it was deleted? Look in the archives?

	27-05-2001 23:22									#14
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I guess someone is going to have to hold my hand on this one. I don't seem to know how to get to the archives. Am I missing something, is it out in the open and I just can't see it it's so simple.

	28-05-2001 01:41									#15
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ack...I don't see them either.

I'll go and find them again a little later.

	28-05-2001 02:36									#16
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I found my sheet of paper that I had all my figures written down on. My earlier thread is still MIA though.

Here's a cool link I found while looking for pictures of military uniforms. http://militaryhistory.about.com/ho...rg%2Findex.html

	01-06-2001 12:37									#17
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Does anybody know what happened to the Archives?

	02-06-2001 02:59									#18
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So drop the J-10 and put in the J-12

	02-06-2001 04:08									#19
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I was just planning on getting rid of the planes that are under development all together. I figured that if they are still in development now it will be ten to twenty years before they reach front line service in any significant numbers. I was just going to go with what they had on their shopping list. Due to the cost of designing new and better aircraft, China will probably abstain from aggressively pursuing their own programs unless they can find an export market. Then again there is the matter of national pride in having a homegrown fighter jet. The Asians are sticklers for pride. So right now it is all up in the air. I will wait until I finish my map before I decide.

	02-06-2001 11:12									#20
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As things currently stand, China dosn't have a hope of sucessfully pulling off an invasion of Tiawan. This means that the Chinese would have to spend several years building up thier armed forces before they could carry out an invasion. This build up would likely see a major acceleration of R&D efforts, so its not impossible that the J-10 could be brought into service (in small numbers) by 2005.

	03-06-2001 00:38									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I don't know about this anymore guys. I have lost my interest in this scenario for now and no longer feel the excitement I felt at the beginning. I no longer enjoy working on it other than making units and it feel more like a chore than a hobby. Maybe I will stick to drawing graphics, which I still enjoy, and leave the full scenario making to the more disciplined Civers.

I thank everybody for their help and I will keep all my info just in case I get bitten by the bug again. Hopefully your time will not have been wasted.

	03-06-2001 01:41									#22
	Remove this text

Can you email me your unit graphics then? I might be able to use them.

	03-06-2001 04:04									#23
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Jimmywax definately keep designing units and i hope you keep designing them for years to come they are truly a delight
Keep it going!

	03-06-2001 05:11									#24
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What areyou working on Eternal, or should I already know.

	03-06-2001 05:19									#25
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Actually I just finished working on an Isreali Vautour. This was their main bomber/fighter during the Six-day war. Does anybody need one of these?

Attachment: vautour.gif
This has been downloaded 268 time(s).

	03-06-2001 11:53									#26
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I'm working on a theater-level scenario of a Soviet invasion of Germany.

	03-06-2001 14:26									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

Postyour email Eternal. I hate using the forums (it sucks).

	04-06-2001 02:05									#28
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This is easier

Attachment: myunits.gif
This has been downloaded 265 time(s).

	04-06-2001 02:13									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

BTW, the one's with BB were made by BeBro. The other ones with other initials are ones that I modified and still wanted to give the original artist credit.

	04-06-2001 03:31									#30
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You couldnt tell us what each of the pictures represents? i know some have what they are on them but some dont and i would like to know what they are