22-05-2001 17:45									#1
	Mother Nature . . . as a civ? Enter the AD-FREE zone

In a scenario I'm putting together now, I want one of the civs to be a "mother nature" type thing. It should control certain units; storms and such. But I don't want it to have any cities, do any research, or make any money. But it seems that if it doesn't have any cities, will the game engine simply declare it "gone" and eliminate it from play? I've looked at a few other scenarios where designers have created this kind of a civ, but how they do it eludes me so far.

Anyone want to enlighten me?

Looking for a clue,
Exile

	22-05-2001 18:22									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Exile, you can do it one of 2 ways: hidden city or hidden settler. The problem with hidden settler is that if the "nature" civ ever captures a city and then loses it again, the civ is destroyed , even if the settler still exists. If you use this method, put the settler in an out of the way corner in the ocean so it won't move or found a city.

	22-05-2001 18:30									#3
	Suffering from ads?

Ok, thanks, Tecumseh.

Now then, if I make all the "nature" units air domain, they can't ever take a city, can they? Will that prevent the civ from disappearing with the "hidden settler?" Also, is there a way to hide the settler in the ocean so that it doesn't appear visible? Can I use an unused unit slot, give it "settle" assignment, and still have the game consider it a "settler?" If that can be done, then it seems I can create a nature "settler," make it look just like an ocean square, cover up its shield, and, if it's not in a prominent place, voila'

Will this work?

Exile

	22-05-2001 18:40									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Now then, if I make all the "nature" units air domain, they can't ever take a city, can
they? Correct.

Will that prevent the civ from disappearing with the "hidden settler?" Yes.

Also, is there a way to hide the settler in the ocean so that it doesn't appear visible? Yes.

Can I use an unused unit slot, give it "settle" assignment, and still have the game consider it a
"settler?" I think so.

If that can be done, then it seems I can create a nature "settler," make it look just like an ocean square, cover up its shield, and, if it's not in a prominent place, voila'. Will this work? Undoubtably.

	22-05-2001 18:48									#5
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Thank you Tecumseh, you're a prince.

Really. (get it?)

Salutations,
Exile

	22-05-2001 23:40									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Or the settler can be transparent and impassable with no movement rate, and just stuck somewhere.

	23-05-2001 01:24									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ok, transparent sounds good. How do you hide the shield?

Exile

	23-05-2001 02:42									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

If you wait for a scenario I'm working on, you can see directly how to do it. But basically, you take the two blue dots that make up a shield position, and you put them in the corner.

If you need more help, I could try to get a screenshot or something.

	23-05-2001 04:35									#9
	Okey-dokey Suffering from ads?

Put it in the corner, huh? Ok, think I can manage that. I'll trial-n-error it until it comes out right.

Thanks,
Exile

	23-05-2001 04:44									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There might be a Scenario League tip as well.

	24-05-2001 08:43									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I've never tried this (or even heard of it), but there may be a way to give your "Nature Civ" an invisible home city that can't be conquered:

1) Place a "Nature" settler at one of the 4 corners of the map.
2) Have him build a city, and then save the game.
3) Consult Allard's Hex Editing Document. Specifically, go to Chapter 8 (which describes how to find the city and which bytes contain the location coordinates)
4) HexEdit one of the coordinates such that the city exists on an EVEN-ODD tile. It's possible this will "blow up" the game, but it's been done successfully with units. (although not usually on purpose!)
5) If this works, the city will be invisible and impossible to conquer, although it will have a Zone of Control. Be sure that your "Nature Civ" can't build units, or else the city will probably spawn invisible units which - at best - will be a nuisance.

Alternatively, you could create an invisible settler that will offer most of the benfits of the invisible city:

1) Use the event file to drop an invisible, zero-move, Nature Civ settler into some inaccessible portion of the map (again, one of the 4 corners would probably be best).

2) Set the location as one of those impossible EVEN-ODD tiles. And be sure the location is close to a "real" tile. If you want the settler near tile 50, 50 then select something like 50, 49.

3) After running through the events, you should have a zero move, invincible, invisible settler hidden away on your map.

A few caveats:

1) Diplomats and Spies CAN "attack" invisible units, but you may be able to prevent that by making your Nature Civ a democracy (it's best to do this via hex editing)"

2) I'm not 100% certain, but I think that settler-only civs MUST use a slot1 settler. In other words, giving settler capabilities to a unit in the phalanx spot and then deleting the original slot1 settler (created by the game for turn one) might kill off your nature civ. Best to test this out yourself.

	24-05-2001 09:16									#12
	King Kull, Lord of Valusia Speaks! Suffering from ads?

Thanks, Kull. Believe it or not, here is what I did and I actually got it to work. I first took an unused slot (I think I converted the fighter slot) made it "invisible" by using the MGE editor to blank out the graphic, gave the new unit the "settle" role, made it no movement, no attack, high defense factor, high hit points, and placed it in a corner of the map! I did this this afternoon. I still want to go in and move its shield around so that it doesn't appear, but the nature civ won't be played by humans, so the chances of anyone seeing it at all is minimal. Here's why; in this scenario, there is only a small area of Black Sea coastline on the map, and I have included no naval units with the ability to attack. The "hidden" settler is in the ocean, and its realm is ground. So, it can't move, can't be seen, can't be attacked, and even if it is attacked, it's numbers are so high that it will undoubtedly win any such combat. You are correct sir, in noting that it can be bribed, but someone would have to know that it was there in order to do it. Of course, if someone reads and remembers this post, then the jig is up, but, even if they did, the unit still wouldn't be able to go anywhere. I don't know what would happen to the Nature civ at that point, though. The only thing that I can say about that will be in the readme file where I can emphatically instruct would-be players NOT to bribe the settler-in-the-sea, because it will take a good part of the fun out of the game.

Hex editing? You're talking to someone who decided to jump off into the clear blue by NOT using the MGE editor to create an events file only today! And I've apparently screwed that up royally. I shudder to think what kind of unmitigated disaster would befall were I to attempt hex editing. Probably crash my hard drive or something equally tragic.

Ever read any Robert E. Howard?

btw, I love your scenarios, they are some of the best anywhere.

Salutations (and thanks),
Exile

	24-05-2001 11:54									#13
	Re: King Kull, Lord of Valusia Speaks! Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Exile You are correct sir, in noting that it can be bribed, but someone would have to know that it was there in order to do it. Of course, if someone reads and remembers this post, then the jig is up, but, even if they did, the unit still wouldn't be able to go anywhere. I don't know what would happen to the Nature civ at that point, though. The only thing that I can say about that will be in the readme file where I can emphatically instruct would-be players NOT to bribe the settler-in-the-sea, because it will take a good part of the fun out of the game.

Place two settlers on top of eachother and they will be unbribable , either that or make mother nature a democracy.

	24-05-2001 13:26									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Good point Henrik! Multiple units are unbribable. One last thought: If the special Nature civ settlers are bomber-type units, then only units with the "can attack air" flag can harm them.

	24-05-2001 15:37									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

One option simply is founding that city on a terrain square, for example desert, then saving the game, going to the rules, editing the desert square so it is possible to terraform it to ocean, give explosives to this civ, and go terraforming. It works. Afterwards, you might want to recreate the status quo ante in other matters.
You don't have to give the city a name, and can give the civ an "ocean" style. The most important thing about this is that the only unit that will ever be able to conquer the city is the helicopter, and if you use defenders that outdo the helicopters by far, you'll be the winner (giving them 50 defense is also a good way to protect them against ships). This way, you can also simulate other things: Coral reefs, cliffs etc., things that cannot be moved but are there as an "invisible" city (you can give them specific styles such as a coral reef pic, just make sure the city doesen't grow) defended by an "invisible" defender.

	31-05-2001 20:20									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Why not make ALL 0 move Mother Nature units settlers? (assuming that there will b 0-move units).