22-05-2001 23:44									#1
	Weak AI-city locations? Check out screenshot Remove this text

Check out this SCREENSHOT.
It seems to me that the old Civ-2 problem of inefficiently exploited AI land-areas is about to reincarnate in Civ-3 as well.

Time and time again, in Civ-2 (and in SMAC), I bumped into AI-empires that have founded their cities, either too close, which resulted in heavily overlaped city-areas (check out screenshot) , or too far apart from each city, with too much unexploited & wasted chunks of land-tiles between them. Even worse, was the problem with too many inland-cities and too few AI-coastal cities.

My own strategy was often to prioritize coastal-cities at first, then working inwards with inland-cities. By comparision, the city-locations (at least for the three American cities) in above screenshot seemes to be much the same hit-and-miss affair, as in Civ-2 & SMAC. (the yellowish Salamanca-city and citys belonging to that civ, seems to be better spaced out though).

I really HOPE that they (Firaxis) at least have added the ability in the scenario/map-editor to manually pinpoint potential (player-invisible) city-locations all over the map - as many (or few), and as ideally & effectively spaced as the map-creator wants them. Thus forcing the AI to only found cities on these pre-designated locations. If only they could give me some little hint that the latter have been implemented. It sure would be a huge relief...

Last edited by Ralf on 23-05-2001 at 00:00

	23-05-2001 00:01									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Also, the AI should be taught the same sort of "strategy" rules that human players think of.

For example. . especially with the way resources work now.

In CIV2, if i saw a bottlneck, i almost ALWAYS built a city there, even if it wasn't a good city location apart from that fact. even if i had to send food there. . just purely for the military strategy. .

	23-05-2001 00:10									#3
	Re: Weak AI-city locations? Check out screenshot Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Ralf Time and time again, in Civ-2 (and in SMAC), I bumped into AI-empires that have founded their cities, either too close, which resulted in heavily overlaped city-areas (check out screenshot) , or too far apart from each city, with too much unexploited & wasted chunks of land-tiles between them. Even worse, was the problem with too many inland-cities and too few AI-coastal cities. My own strategy was often to prioritize coastal-cities at first, then working inwards with inland-cities. By comparision, the city-locations (at least for the three American cities) in above screenshot seemes to be much the same hit-and-miss affair, as in Civ-2 & SMAC. (the yellowish Salamanca-city and citys belonging to that civ, seems to be better spaced out though).

The thing is, it looks like the Americans are the player, i.e. someone at Firaxis, and the other civs are AI civs which have much better city placement than the Americans.

Does anyone else see it that way?

	23-05-2001 00:22									#4
	Re: Re: Weak AI-city locations? Check out screenshot Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by senowen Does anyone else see it that way?

Oh God - I think you are right. They can only take a screenshoot then its the players turn, and that american indian-unit seems to be activated one.

	23-05-2001 01:54									#5
	Got spare money?

One nice feature is that borders extend into the water. Especially with regards to whale and fish resources

	23-05-2001 02:35									#6
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Besides, the game is in early development still. The screenshot does not necessarily reflect the work they have done on the AI. So, I think it is way too early to make definitive statements about AI city placement based on a screenshot.

I hope that the AI does do a better job at city placement especially since ressources are so much more critical now in the game.

If you look at the screenshot, cities are not placed that poorly.

	23-05-2001 06:35									#7
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Also remember that many of those resources won't appear until after you discover a technology...city placement won't be as easy as before...

	23-05-2001 06:36									#8
	Re: Re: Weak AI-city locations? Check out screenshot Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by senowen The thing is, it looks like the Americans are the player, i.e. someone at Firaxis, and the other civs are AI civs which have much better city placement than the Americans.

No wonder AI city placement in past games has been so bad, the game designers themselves make the same silly decisions. Can't wait to play some MP games against those that created the game.

	23-05-2001 14:46									#9
	Re: Weak AI-city locations? Check out screenshot Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Nevermind, somebody had asked the question before I did.

	24-05-2001 17:22									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Also remember that many of those resources won't appear until after you discover a technology...city placement won't be as easy as before...

Yes, but even if special resources/ luxuries are more vital and pivotal then ever, the basic raw empire production-strength STILL comes, first and foremost, from the old trusty 21-square food/shields/trade city-areas. Therefore its important that these AI city-areas are more optimally placed on the map, with more coastal-cites (if possible) in the beginning, then working inwards, thus ensuring best possible land-area exploitation on small- to medium-sized islands, and on land-masses with lots of headlands/capes.

If the number of squares not covered with fixed 21-square city-areas is reasonably minimized, then the exploitation of special resources/ luxuries will more or less, take care of its self with help of expanding culture-borders and colonies.
Both new cities and colonies can always be founded later, in order to pin down any surfacing resources/ luxuries further down the tech-tree, anyway.

	24-05-2001 19:45									#11
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quote: One nice feature is that borders extend into the water. Especially with regards to whale and fish resources

whale and fish resources? i dont see any fish or whales in any screenshot!

WHERE ARE THE FISHIES?!

	24-05-2001 22:18									#12
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX WHERE ARE THE FISHIES?!

Well, according to Firaxis special resources (like iron) will be unevenly distributed on the map. But, at least fish should be somewhat more evenly and commonly distributed, I think. Its surprising to see that there are no marine resources whatsoever.

Maybe the marine-food resources comes available triggered by the seafaring-tech, and/or the harbour city-improvement? Some of these screenshots shows fairly developed cities however, and the seafaring/harbour upgrade is available relatively early in the tech-tree.

I would be very surprised however, if these screenshots shows ocean-squares in its final version. Infact, if anything - I would like to see more resource variaty in the ocean-squares - not less. I hope this gets clarified the next couple of weeks.

	24-05-2001 23:40									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf Well, according to Firaxis special resources (like iron) will be unevenly distributed on the map. But, at least fish should be somewhat more evenly and commonly distributed, I think. Its surprising to see that there are no marine resources whatsoever.

I agree, especially when the screenshots show borders extending into the oceans/seas. They must be in the game, somewhere (hoping, praying, etc.)