10-08-2001 05:52									#361
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all I have to say is that the list looks very sharp

Locutus congrats, I gave you the reigns and you worked wonders. All Apolytoners that participated did a great job.


no facts about leaders:
persians
zulus

	10-08-2001 06:04									#362
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Paiktis,
I guess I did okay, but your work shouldn't be underestimated either: you laid the foundation that made it all possible, set the example and formulated the guidelines that I simply followed.

Hear, hear! I second that: a big thank you to everyone who contributed to this discussion in any way

	10-08-2001 09:47									#363
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There's a blurry picture on civ3.com that displays the leaders of the Russians and Germans. Germany has a gray-bearded gentleman whom I assume is Frederick. Then again, it does look like it says "Bismarck von Otto", which could be a Firaxis prank. Bismarck had a bushy mustahce, but not a beard. Russia has a woman, so perhaps old Victoria is Catherine after all.

I would say we would be safe to bet that Zulus have Shaka Zulu and Persia has Xerxes. Everything would match CivII (except Iroquois).

Another interesting thing -- it appears the leader's clothes and surroundings change with time (or government).

Again, I would suggest Immortal as Persia's unit, but we don;t know yet.

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	10-08-2001 09:53									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 Another interesting thing -- it appears the leader's clothes and surroundings change with time (or government).

Nice catch! You may be on to something...

	11-08-2001 21:58									#365
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I'm out of the Country for one week, and now when I'm back civ3.com is online and everything is solved. (And it will take a decade for me to read everything new ).

I want to thank everyone that has worked with this thread, for all the facts we managed to find. I remember reading previews and analyzing screens over and over again, trying to find facts that we needed. Especially I want to thank paiktis22, who came up with the idea of this thread, and Locutus that has made a great work in being an objective moderator of the list of civs.

This thread has been the most interesting thread at the Civ3 forum since it started, and every time it had new posts when I browsed the forum I started to read them before any other thread.

At last, do you think Firaxis would have released a Civ-list with the new page if this thread hadn’t existed, and we were so close to the truth?

Personally I think no, as they would have wanted us to wait longer to find out what civs are in the game, but as we practically already knew it they could release it.

	11-08-2001 22:49									#366
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Thank you for the compliments, Gramphos, you have been an important contributor to this thread yourself as well. The thought that Firaxis might have published the list of civs because of this thread hadn't even crossed my mind yet but now you mention it, it might be true. The only places where the full list is visible is in a screenshot of the game setup screen and in a special window next to the 'Civ of the week' feature. Both could have easily been left out and replaced with something else and it wouldn't have left any 'holes' in the site or anything. In fact, non knowing which civs are in the game might have made the 'Civ of the week' feature a lot more exciting (oops, sorry Dan, for screwing up your idea ). I suppose we'll never know if Firaxis added the lists in later just for us or planned on posting them from the beginning. An interesting thought though...

Anyway, in case anyone is still interested, here's the list of civs updated with all new Civ.com info (too much has changed so I won't bother making the whole thing red):

1. AMERICA - Leader: Abraham Lincoln; Unique Unit: F15; Color: Light blue
2. THE AZTEC EMPIRE - Leader: King Montezuma; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Pink
3. BABYLON - Leader: King Hammurabi; Unique Unit: Bowman; Color: Red
4. BRITAIN - Leader: Queen Elisabeth; Unique Unit: Man-of-War; Color: unknown
5. CHINA - Leader: Chairman Mao Tse Tung; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Light blue
6. EGYPT - Leader: Pharaoh Cleopatra; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Yellow
7. FRANCE - Leader: (Empress?) Joan of Arc; Unique Unit: Musketeer; Color: Pink
8. GERMANY - Leader: (Emperor Otto Von Bismarck?); Unique Unit: Panzer; Color: Dark blue
9. GREECE - Leader: Alexander the Great; Unique Unit: Hoplite; Color: Green
10. INDIA - Leader: Mahatma Ghandi; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: unknown
11. IROQUOIS - Leader: Hiawatha; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Grey
12. JAPAN - Leader: Tokugawa Ieyasu; Unique Unit: Samurai; Color: unknown
13. PERSIA - Leader: unknown; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Orange
14. ROME - Leader: Julius Ceasar; Unique Unit: Legion; Color: Red
15. RUSSIA - Leader: Czar Catherine the Great; Unique Unit: MiG; Color: Grey
16. ZULU LAND - Leader: unknown; Unique Unit: Impi; Color: Yellow

Unknown Leaders (2): Persian, Zulu
Unknown Unique Units (6): Aztec, Chinese, Egyptian, Indian, Iroquois, Persian
Free Colors (3): Green, Orange, Dark blue (Civs: English, Indian, Japanese)

	11-08-2001 23:07									#367
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Yup, Gramphos you contributed significantly and you were present since Day One of the whole effort

Never thought about what you said about Firaxis and the LIST. Could be

	11-08-2001 23:09									#368
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Interesting observation: If the civ colors are locked like they were in CivII, we would be unable to play with 2 civs that share the same color (i.e. no America vs China games). Also, we could expect the the civs that share colors to be paired on the civ selection screen.

However, it seems like the similiar colored civs are not paired (except for America and China). In fact, the civ selection screen appears to allow Rome (or a customized version) and Egypt in the same game. Of course these 2 civs do not share a color.

I just wonder how set in stone the colors are.. then again, animation for only one color would be much easier. Or would it?

Here is the referenced screen:
http://www.civ3.com/images/screenshots/playersetup.jpg

[edit=fixed the url, again and again...]

Last edited by Warm Beer on 11-08-2001 at 23:16

	11-08-2001 23:28									#369
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I've spotted the civs in a third place: The table of all civabilities, but it could have been kept secret until facing that civ. One thing we know for sure: The importance of this thread will never be totally reviled

	11-08-2001 23:37									#370
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Have we talked much about the Unique Units? I noticed that there are a few units that kinda equal each other. For example: America gets F-16, Russia gets MiG. The base unit for both of these are Jet Fighters (or whetever there offically called). Rome gets Legion, Japanese get Samuri. Again, both base units are Swordsmen. These are only 4 of the 16 that have unique units that come from the same base. But could we use the ones we do know to find the ones we dont? For example: Zulu gets Impi. The base unit is warrior. well, before I go any further. The greeks get the hoplite. The base unit is spearmen(or phalanx? or did the name change?). Is the Impi a unique spearmen or warrior? If it is a spearmen, than Greece and Zulu share the same unique base unit (spearmen/phalanx?) if the Impi is a unique warrior, than could the Iroquois have 'Braves' which could also be a unique warrior. I'm just brainstorming a little here..

going along with this, there would have to be a equal to the Musketeer (Musketmen), Man-o-War(Warship of sometype, ship of the line maybe?), Panzer (tank), Bowman (archer). wit hthat we only have 6 shared base units... we would notbe able to know 4 or the civs UU......

	11-08-2001 23:41									#371
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I think you may be able to play two different civs that according to Locutus list have the same color.

On this page there is a diplomacy screen where there are both Babylonians and modified Romans (both Red according to the list):

http://www.civ3.com/gallery.cfm?startimg=7

Of course, the thing may be that the Romans (Bluto of the Deltans) were edited under a different slot, but this is unlikely.

	12-08-2001 00:23									#372
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Regarding the colors of the Civs it is most likely that they have a default set of Colors, but if you use two civs with the same color, one of the civs will get a color not used by a civ in the game.

The colors might also not be assigned to any specific civ at all, but to the spots. The Default option for the opponents would be the one that we've seen in the screenshots for now.

This issue is too big to find a solution to right now, but by the time we'll get more info and maybe solve the color problem.


Regarding Unique Units I'll begin by stating that it is F-15, not F-16 .
Now to the important things:
I'll try to list what I know about Unique Units at this point.
1. Firaxis has said that the Unique Units won't unbalance the game.
2. Each Civ can have more then one Unique Units, but as far as I know all civs are shipped with one.
3. Unique Units are based on Common Units, with slightly modifications on their numbers.
4. Unique Units can be turned off.

More then this we don't know right now.

That they are using the same base unit may be a coincidence, or it is planned, nobody except the people at Firaxis knows about this. And at last answering to To_Serve_Man's question:
In this thread we mentioned Unique Units as facts that said that a civ was in from the beginning, so we have talked a bit about it, but not discussed the functions of them. I remember when I tried to strengthen the evidence about Iroquois by trying to prove that a riding Indian looking unit was their Unique Unit. It turned out to maybe be a Brave, based on a horseman, but it may also be a leader. As there was another Indian looking unit in one of the first screens, we could not find enough evidence about anyone of them being the Iroquois Unique Unit. Now both of this might be Unique Units for the Iroquois, but I don't think that'll give more then one Unique Unit to any civ from start.
Anyway discussion of the functions of Unique Unit has been done in other threads, and over the forum in total I think that they are widely discussed.
Conclusion: It has been discussed, but we don't know so mush.

	12-08-2001 00:53									#373
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You seem to be forgetting about the Aztecs, Gramphos. The other "Indian looking" unit most likely belongs to them.

	12-08-2001 01:17									#374
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th You seem to be forgetting about the Aztecs, Gramphos. The other "Indian looking" unit most likely belongs to them.

Yes, you are right. I didn't think of that. How could we miss that while debating about this a while ago, The fact that we had two Unique Indians should have been used to state that there was two Indian tribes in Civ III.

Now what civ has the riding one , and what has the other ?
And what is this? It was guessed by Snapcase to be the Aztec Unique Unit.
But the unit screen may also just show units in development.

Why weren't you around when ver 2 started?

	12-08-2001 03:05									#375
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos The colors might also not be assigned to any specific civ at all, but to the spots. The Default option for the opponents would be the one that we've seen in the screenshots for now.

Maybe, but in the screenshots the player has been the "default color" of the civ, i.e. when the player is American, s/he is always light blue, red for Romans, &c. Perhaps if it does work this way the player is always the default color and the slots are predefined as each of the rest of the colors, allowing for any combination of civs (?), but you may be onto something with the idea that civs with conflicting colors change colors.

But this still leaves open how they will implement 16 different civs at once color-wise.

	12-08-2001 03:12									#376
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This has got to be the most popular thread on Apolyton! Over 6000 views and still growing!

In regards to the Iroquois/Aztec units, I consider the mounted chieftain as too "Plains tribe"-ish to be the Iroquois unit. I think the infantry "Brave" is more likely. The other unit is also possible as the Aztec Eagle Warrior.

I suppose the horseman with the headress could be a special leader unit for the Iroquois. I don't know.

But bring on randomized colors! Don't attach civs to colors! I was mad about CivII; Germans, French, and Vikings all dark blue! Yes they all look good in the color, but that ruins any hope of a European scenario. The same is true of Indians and Mongols as purple and Greeks and Carthaginians as orange or even Celts and Romans as white!

Go random colors!

Last edited by Alexander01 on 12-08-2001 at 03:22

	12-08-2001 03:15									#377
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos Now what civ has the riding one

Most likely not the Aztecs because they didn't even know of the existence of horses until the Spanish attacked them.

I'm not sure about the other two. They are grainy. I believe they may be the same unit, in different stages of development, and also in different stages of the animation.

quote: Why weren't you around when ver 2 started?

I was around, I just avoided all the speculation and random guessing.

	12-08-2001 09:28									#378
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Indian (well, North American Native American Indians) Chiefs wore those big head dresses. And thats what the guy on the horse is wearing...

The one with the two feathers could be a Brave, and the other one an Eagle Warrior. But if both were unique Warriors, that would thow off my origanal idea. However, what if Brave = Impi = Warrior and Eagle Warrior = Hoplite = Spearmen/Phalanx? Eh? eh?

I guess it doesnt really matter, we'll hear all about them in the Civ of the Weeks coming up.... plus the game is coming in October


oh well

	12-08-2001 10:43									#379
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In the screenshot where the Horseback Indian were first shown, it is shown in the same color as Salamanca (Grey) which proves that it is a unit of the Iroquois. It may still be a common unit or leader, but it can't be Unique Unit of any other civ.

	13-08-2001 01:55									#380
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I located this picture farther down on the front page of Civ3.com. I think everyone missed it as they were rushing for the "civ of the week." I believe it contains:

Eagle Warrior (Aztecs)
Samurai (Japanese)
Warrior (Generic)
Cleopatra (Egyptians, in her renaissance garb)

Any thoughts, folks?

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