08-08-2001 05:28									#331
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th There has never been a female President in the U.S. (no women even run for President).

Just a short note. Elizabeth Dole ran for President in 2000 Republican primary. One of the first to drop out of the race.

	08-08-2001 05:49									#332
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My guess is that Spain makes it in, with the Persians and Babylonians grouped as one civ, and the Aztecs filling the final spot, leaving the Mongols and Vikings to get the shaft. I have no evidence for my conclusion, other than it's the only thing that would make sense for Firaxis to do. Of course we can always hope that the magic number of 16 is extended to perhaps 18 or 20.

	08-08-2001 05:55									#333
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.....Of course, on the same coin, I would rather see the Mongols than the Spaniards, but of course this is all merely IMHO

	08-08-2001 07:32									#334
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 In regards to the ess-zet "ss" vs. "Beta" problem in German, unless they've changed it in the last two months, words where the ess-zet follows a short vowel have two s's, while words with a long vowel have an ess-zet.

Technically, it is still used after a long vowel (Straße, Fuß) and diphthongs (weiß, Scheiße), except for the word "aus," which would have otherwise been written "auß." And in Switzerland they don't use the ß at all! The recent reforms make German spelling quite easier, but even before it was nothing compared to English spelling (which is very difficult for us foreigners). Now if only you guys could fix it!

	08-08-2001 21:12									#335
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th There has never been a female President in the U.S. (no women even run for President).

What about Hillary? Does anyone actually think Bill was making the decisions? Come on, he was too busy hitting on trailer park trash to actually govern. That and without her sticking with him, he never would've had public support. For at leas tthe last few years, Hillary was out president, not Bill.

	08-08-2001 23:46									#336
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I think monkspider's hypothesis is quite reasonable. The Aztecs will probably be in due to the "token race" problem - at least one race from everywhere. The Spanish are possible though evidence for them is shaky, but they were quite influential for centuries, so the probability remains. Babylon and Persia could be lumped together as "Mesopotamians," though I think it more likely that Persia is included alone with the Babylonians incorporated (the Babylonian empire was entirely incorporated into the Persian empire, which was longer lasting anyway). Persia incidentally had 5 capitals: Persepolis - the new ceremonial capital the Kings were building, Alexander burned before it could be totally finished, Pasargadae, the old administrative capital of Persia, Ecbatana, the capital of Media, Susa (or Shushan), the capital of Elam, and Babylon, the capital of Babylonia. They may try this Persian empire approach. The only unique unit I can think of is the Immortal, which would either replace swordsman or chariot. I don't know.

	09-08-2001 01:28									#337
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Alexander-

What exactly is an Immortal?

I saw this picture on this site for a cavalry type unit that could be the "Mesopotamian" special unit. It's listed possibly as a dervish, but if anyone could identify the unit that'd be great.

Attachment: dervish.jpg
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	09-08-2001 01:31									#338
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Also, could this be the Eagle Warrior (Aztec Special unit)?

This would raise the possibility of the Aztecs.

Attachment: eaglewarrior.jpg
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	09-08-2001 01:53									#339
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weren't there official statements mate about the civs included? shouldn't we already know whether aztecs are in or not?

	09-08-2001 02:42									#340
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Nope, no official statements, other then screenshots or random mentions. I don't think even any previews have mentioned the Aztecs either.

	09-08-2001 04:45									#341
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The 10,000 Immortals were the King of Persia's elite guard. When one member would die, another man was immediately added to fill the vacancy, thus they were "Immortal" because there were always 10,000 of them. If anyone's played the CivII Alexander the Great scenario, the Immortals unit reflects King Darius III. It's a modified charioteer image with gold-ish armor, a spear, dark skin, and no plume in the helmet.

I recently read that the Immortals were bowmen/infantryman. That is to say, they were armed with bows and quivers of arrows in addition to spears, giving them both a ranged attack and a hand-to-hand melee ability. They were supposedly quite formidable in the Achaemenid Dynasty, though Alexander finished them off, along with everything else he came near.

Last edited by Alexander01 on 09-08-2001 at 08:18

	09-08-2001 10:08									#342
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 I'm sorry to diappoint you, but to me it appears that Firaxis has eliminated the "barbarian" civilizations from CivIII. That eliminates the Mongols and the Vikings from the running. Also, we are about 99% sure the Japanese are in because we've seen their animated Shogun and samurai unique unit. The Israelis are another matter because of their unique culture. Don't ask me why, but someone might get offended if they were included (or excluded for that matter) - it's just not the politically correct thing to do. (Even though I'd like to see them in too). And yes, CTP included the Hebrews, but they also ripped off Sid Meier's idea, right down to names like Shakala that were invented. This leaves Persians, Babylonians, Aztecs, and Spanish. One of these four will be left out.

You call the Vikings barbarians!!! they were the greatest sailors in the early middle ages. The only reason some people called the Vikings barbarians was because of their fierce warriors. They crossed the Atlantic while the rest of Europe was climbing out of the Dark Ages. The traditionnal Viking "capital", Trondhiem was a trade center since 500B.C.!!! Finally in the Screenshot units, one of units looked like those viking warriors.

	09-08-2001 18:23									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus 14. PERSIANS - City names (capital) -> Brown? 15. BABYLONIANS - City name -> Red

both confirmed by Jeff Morris

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...2236#post412236

	09-08-2001 18:25									#344
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Cripes MarkG, you must have a faster connection then me. This is interesting however...

	09-08-2001 19:11									#345
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So I guess that this means that we're just looking for one more....
I personally think that it's probably the Aztecs, but we need confirmation.

Alexander-

Could this be an immortal?

Attachment: immortal.jpg
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	09-08-2001 19:27									#346
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG both confirmed by Jeff Morris http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...2236#post412236

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The power of Firaxis and the ever vigilant MarkG eye in action!

Only one civ to go.

Locutus and apolytoners we are getting soooooo close to target!!!!!!!!!!!

	09-08-2001 21:29									#347
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Alexander,
I fixed the Man-at-Arms/Man-of-War thing, I had mixed things up there, probably because there is a Man-at-Arms unit in one of the CtP mods.
I think they changed from Sioux to Iroquois because the Iroquois were much more a real civ, they weren't loose tribes but were unified in an alliance and more or less behaved like a single nation towards the Western colonists and other native North-Americans. My knowlegde of the Sioux is limited but I think they were much less unified and one could thus argue that they aren't even a real civ whereas the Iroquois were (I'm not sure if everyone would agree to this but I can see how Firaxis might).

Markos,
Thanks for the heads up on that one! Any chance you could abuse your power position to torture a confirmation on the Aztecs and possibly the Japanese out of a Firaxian?

jsw363,
The clues on the Aztec are quite strong (about half a dozen city names from 2 or 3 screenshots) but we indeed need slightly more evidence to consider them 100% certain.

All,
After reviewing some of the points that have been brought up on the Japanese ever since I declared them 95% certain (mainly by Alexander01) I decided to make another change. Both the Mongol and the Spanish can basicly only be in if some other evidence turns out to be wrong, so if you want to be consistent you really ought to put them in the same list, so I moved the Mongols down to the 'Suggestions based on clues' list. The aforementioned points by Alexander01 et al played a role in making this decision as well, as they further decrease the chance of the Mongols being in (this is also reflected by changing the chance of them being in from 5% to 1%). If people disagree I'll change it back but I don't think anyone still believes the Japanese aren't in anymore.



So far, based on our evidence, we know that:

100% CONFIRMED. These civs ARE in CIV 3:

1. AMERICANS - Leader (Abraham Lincoln; 100% confirmed), city names (capital), Unique Unit (F15) -> Light blue
2. GERMANS - Leader? (Catherine the Great, Maria Theresa or someone else?), Unique Unit (Panzer), city names (capital), multiple text references, video reference -> Dark blue
3. CHINESE - Leader (Mao Zedong; 100% confirmed), city names -> Light blue
4. ROMANS - Leader (C. Julius Ceasar), city name (capital), Unique Unit (Legion), video reference -> Red
5. FRENCH - Leader (Joan of Arc(?); 100% confirmed), city names (capital), dialogue window of the French (Unique Unit: Musketeer?) -> Pink
6. RUSSIANS - Leader? (Catherine the Great, Maria Theresa or someone else?), Unique Unit (MiG), city names -> Grey
7. ZULUS - Unique Unit (Impi), city names -> Yellow
8. ENGLISH - Leader (Elisabeth I; 100% confirmed), (Unique Unit: Man-of-War)
9. EGYPTIANS - Leader (100% pharaoh, does anyone know who this is?), definite text reference, city names (capital) -> Yellow
10. INDIANS - Leader (Mahatma Ghandi; 100% confirmed)
11. JAPANESE (99%) - Leader (Tokugawa Ieyasu - Hat and characters on collar are Japanese), possible Unique Unit (Samurai) (see 17)
12. IROQUOIS - Leader (Hiawatha; 100% confirmed), city names, text references, Unique Unit (75% Unique Unit - 25% Military Leader) -> Grey
13. GREEKS - Leader (Alexander the Great, city names (capital), possible Unique Unit (Hoplite), text reference, video reference -> Green
14. PERSIANS - City names (capital), statement from Jeffrey Morris -> Brown?
15. BABYLONIANS - City name, statement from Jeffrey Morris -> Red


EVIDENCE ABOUT OTHER CIVS (which means they could be in or not):

16. AZTECS - City names -> Pink


SUGGESTIONS BASED ON CLUES (weak clues but we report them):

17. MONGOLS (1%) - There's a small chance Firaxis made some mistakes with the Japanese Leader; if so, it is a Mongol rather than a Japanese Leader (see 11)
18. SPANISH - City name: Salamanca, but it was once a Roman city and there's also an Iroquois city with that name.
19. VIKINGS (?) Very weak clues. See above mention URL for the boat: Viking Longboat?
20. ISRAELIS. Apolytoner Eli has pointed out that according to a israeli site, Israel is in.
21. CANADIANS. City name (Montreal). The city name is NOT on the map, but on a civ 3 window.
22. CONFEDERATES. As refered to in a swedish article, a Great Military Leader in Civ 3 could be Stonewell Jackson. Apolytoner Arator argued that this leader is impossible to be in the same civ as Lincoln (=100% confirmed leader of the Americans). Many other Apolytoners disagree though, arguing that he's more likely to be an American, among other reasons because (as joseph1944 pointed out) he served for the American Army before joinging the Confederates.
23. PHOENICIANS. Based on a single text reference in a preview.


----------------------------------------------------------------
The evidence is categorized as such:

Leader= We have a picture of the leader of the corresponting civ.
Unique Unit= We know that the particular unique unit belongs to the corresponding civ
Text reference= The civ has been mentioned by Firaxis in their web site or in interviews by their CEO
Video reference= The civ was seen in Firaxis demo movie from E3.
City names= The names of cities that clearly belong to the corresponding civ are included in scrrenshots of the game
All other clues= All other clues are reported next to the civ name.
-> Color= Indicates in which color(s) the civ has been seen in in-game screenshots.

-------------------------FACTS & POINTERS-----------------------

* Firaxis officially stated that the number of civs that is playable per game will officially be 8. However, it will be possible to increase this number to 16 through the editing tools. Firaxis made no official statement on the total number of civs that will be included in the game but this aforementioned statement and the fact that all previews agree on this issue make it very likely that this number will be 16.
* Based on this info and all available screenshots it can be concluded that the Civs are very likely to be tied to color. There appear to be 8 colors in the game, with 2 civs tied to each color. Note that none of this is official.
* The city names in the screenshots can be from an extra city names list or could have been arbitrarily written be members of Firaxis. So city names in screenshots don't guarantee that a civ will be in. Examples: Kerplakistan and Huntsville, possibly others.
* Another problem could be scenarios. Though city names alone are not enough evidence to include a civ on the 100% certain list and scenario-specific graphics are not likely to be made public until the game is in late beta (if they even exist at all), it's quite possible that some of the evidence we used in this list is based on scenario specific information and not be valid for the regular game.

Last edited by Locutus on 09-08-2001 at 21:36

	09-08-2001 21:38									#348
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 Just a short note. Elizabeth Dole ran for President in 2000 Republican primary. One of the first to drop out of the race.

Exactly.

	09-08-2001 23:11									#349
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus I think they changed from Sioux to Iroquois because the Iroquois were much more a real civ, they weren't loose tribes but were unified in an alliance and more or less behaved like a single nation towards the Western colonists and other native North-Americans. My knowledge of the Sioux is limited but I think they were much less unified and one could thus argue that they aren't even a real civ whereas the Iroquois were (I'm not sure if everyone would agree to this but I can see how Firaxis might).

Locutus, I was going to post this 2 days ago but!! You are correct, the Iroquois were a federation from around 1400AD (Or early) to 1779 when General John Sullivan, under George Washington's orders, took revenge on the Indians by destroying their villages. The Federation was made up by the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca. The Iroquois called themselves the Ongwanonhsioni. This name refers to their dwellings and means we long house builders. About 1722 the Tuscarora Indians joined the league, which then became known as the Six Nations. The confederation of states that became the United States of America may have been patterned after the Iroquois League.
There was several Sioux tribes. The Santee Sioux lived in Minnesota, the Yankton Sioux lived in eastern Dakotas, the Teton Sioux hunted buffalo west of the Missouri River. They were nomads for the most part.
The Iroquois were a Federation longer that either the Aztecs or the Incas was an Empire. 379 years or so.

	10-08-2001 01:34									#350
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Joseph,
Thanks for that info. I read about all that back in the days when we were still trying to figure out which Native American civ was included but I had forgotten the details and was too lazy to look them up again this afternoon. I was very much surprised by the interesting history of the Iroquois and still plan to study it more closely some day...

	10-08-2001 01:57									#351
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Locotus, I have not read the whole thread (12 pages is a bit too long for me) and I have not bothered to look before since speculating is not my favourite hobby.

But why should there only be 16 civs? You can play with 8 at the same time, expandable to 16, but maybe you can choose from 24 or 32?

	10-08-2001 03:00									#352
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Firaxis interview spoke about a release of Civ III with only 16 available because of the need to detail them a lot (animated leader, unique units, etc.).

It has been said that by editor you should be able to add different Civ, but probably putting it in place of a original released Civ (this my guess, not confirmed AFAIK).

Looking at SMAC / SMACX history may be Firaxis will cash with an expansion 6/8 months later, doubling the available Civ to a grand total of 32.

	10-08-2001 03:17									#353
	Remove this text

Don't forget Gettysburg/Antietem.

Firaxis is 90% guaranteed to either put together an expansion pack or collaborate with another company (like Antietem) to develop an expansion pack for them. Civ3 is pretty much assured to be a huge seller, they'd be foolish to not cash in more with an expansion. Even mediocre selling games like Earth 2150 (great game, crappy sales) have expansions.

	10-08-2001 03:28									#354
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Campmajor,
I don't like speculation either, that's why I like this thread so much. The great thing about this thread is that it's NOT about speculation (not most of the time anyway) but rather about facts: things Firaxis said, screenshots, that sort of stuff. There's a lot of speculation going on in the thread but you won't see any of that in my summaries.

On the 16 civs issue, Adm. Naismith is right. Though Firaxis never offiicially stated anything about this issue, they have implied it in interviews and there has been a huge number of previews and stuff from non-Firaxis sources that also used the number 16. In fact, I don't think there has been a single source that claimed there would be more. Of course, an expansion pack is always possible but I'm not even contemplating discussing that in this thread...

	10-08-2001 04:43									#355
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Civ3.com came online and the goal of this thread has been achieved! There's still room to investigate details such as color and leader but I think the 'Civ of the week' feature will eventually fill in all the details we'll need. One of the screenshots clearly shows a game-setup screen with all civs mentioned:

100% CONFIRMED. These civs ARE in CIV 3:

1. AMERICANS - Leader: Abraham Lincoln; Unique Unit: F15; Color: Light blue
2. GERMANS - Leader: Catherine the Great, Maria Theresa or someone else?; Unique Unit (Panzer); Color: Dark blue
3. CHINESE - Leader: Mao Zedong; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Light blue
4. ROMANS - Leader: C. Julius Ceasar; Unique Unit: Legion; Color: Red
5. FRENCH - Leader: Joan of Arc; Unique Unit: Musketeer; Color: Pink
6. RUSSIANS - Leader:Catherine the Great, Maria Theresa or someone else?; Unique Unit: MiG; Color: Grey
7. ZULUS - Leader: unknown; Unique Unit: Impi; Color: Yellow
8. ENGLISH - Leader Elisabeth I; Unique Unit: Man-of-War; Color: unknown
9. EGYPTIANS - Leader: unknown; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Yellow
10. INDIANS - Leader Mahatma Ghandi; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: unknown
11. JAPANESE - Leader: Tokugawa Ieyasu; Unique Unit: Samurai; Color: unknown
12. IROQUOIS - Leader: Hiawatha; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Grey
13. GREEKS - Leader: Alexander the Great; Unique Unit: Hoplite; Color: Green
14. PERSIANS - Leader: unknown; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Brown?
15. BABYLONIANS Leader: Hammurabi; Unique Unit: Bowman; Color: Red
16. AZTECS - Leader: unknown; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Pink

Based on this info and all available screenshots it can be concluded that the Civs are very likely to be tied to color. There appear to be 8 colors in the game, with 2 civs tied to each color. Note that none of this is official.

Last edited by Locutus on 10-08-2001 at 04:53

	10-08-2001 04:51									#356
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WE WERE 100% CORRECT IN ALL (last one: Aztects)

CONGRATULATIONS TO EVERYONE

	10-08-2001 04:55									#357
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Shame that this is the end of this thread... Locotus will have to find a new purpose in life.

But I'm glad the Japanese are in...

	10-08-2001 05:06									#358
	Remove this text

Well, the Aztecs are the other civ as everybody knows by now. The civ specific unit for the Babylonians is the Babylonian Bowman. 2att/2def/2move.

	10-08-2001 05:32									#359
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The aztec leader is Montezuma as seen on the 4th screenshot here:http://www.civ3.com/gallery.cfm?startimg=7

And so the black pharaoh there is Cleopatra?

Why do they call him Montezuma? It's Motecuhzoma or at least Moctezuma

	10-08-2001 05:45									#360
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Colon,
Oohh, no need to worry about me, Colon. I already had way too much purposes in life to chase, I'm just glad I can erase this one from my to-do list (Though there are still many 'unknowns' in the summary, so this thread might have a few aftershocks before it really dies).

100% CONFIRMED. These civs ARE in CIV 3:

1. AMERICANS - Leader: Abraham Lincoln; Unique Unit: F15; Color: Light blue
2. GERMANS - Leader: Catherine the Great, Maria Theresa or someone else?; Unique Unit (Panzer); Color: Dark blue
3. CHINESE - Leader: Mao Zedong; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Light blue
4. ROMANS - Leader: C. Julius Ceasar; Unique Unit: Legion; Color: Red
5. FRENCH - Leader: Joan of Arc; Unique Unit: Musketeer; Color: Pink
6. RUSSIANS - Leader:Catherine the Great, Maria Theresa or someone else?; Unique Unit: MiG; Color: Grey
7. ZULUS - Leader: unknown; Unique Unit: Impi; Color: Yellow
8. ENGLISH - Leader Elisabeth I; Unique Unit: Man-of-War; Color: unknown
9. EGYPTIANS - Leader: Cleopatra; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Yellow
10. INDIANS - Leader Mahatma Ghandi; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: unknown
11. JAPANESE - Leader: Tokugawa Ieyasu; Unique Unit: Samurai; Color: unknown
12. IROQUOIS - Leader: Hiawatha; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Grey
13. GREEKS - Leader: Alexander the Great; Unique Unit: Hoplite; Color: Green
14. PERSIANS - Leader: unknown; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Brown?
15. BABYLONIANS Leader: Hammurabi; Unique Unit: Bowman; Color: Red
16. AZTECS - Leader: Montezuma; Unique Unit: unknown; Color: Pink

Based on this info and all available screenshots it can be concluded that the Civs are very likely to be tied to color. There appear to be 8 colors in the game, with 2 civs tied to each color. Note that none of this is official.