26-05-2001 18:47									#31
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Yeah, Andy, grow up and stop spamming.

	26-05-2001 19:52									#32
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That "confirmed" list is irrelavent guys... Firaxis can do whatever they want, and unless they confirm the list, it's all rumor.

Just use your head, will the Russians be in? DUH Yes!

Will the Greeks be in? DUH YES!! This is "The First Greek Civilization" site. Firaxis knows they'd have 10,000 people stalking them if they didn't include the Greeks.

As for other Civs? I don't really care because if I wanted the "your civ here" in the game, I'd create a custom civ.

Less than 5 months guys... and I'll probably fail at least one of my classes due to this game.

	26-05-2001 22:58									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Yeah, I noticed that and I too hope that paiktis decided to return. Quite frankly, it's a lot harder to moderate this thread than to just post in it

I've understood that, and you are doing great

	26-05-2001 23:46									#34
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Yeah, I'm back. Hi vgriph Too hard to stay away! The forums seem to load faster but may be it's because I had days to show up

Locutus,
You're doing a great job my friend Maybe it seems a little bit hard because you try to satisfy everybody If its not facts or arguments about facts we don't care
You are doing absolutely great and as far as I am concerned you can continue.

Greeks are not 100% confirmed and I don't think they should be 100% confirmed even after the new preview on ign.
Even though we are almost certain the Hoplites will be the unique unit of the Greek civ (screenshot of Athens building this unit) , Firaxis has not speciffically mentioned that yet. We don't have Alexander's portrait yet.

Echelion,
Discussion and discovery of facts makes this thread possible. But if we don't organize our findings in one specific list, we will loose what we have found and in the end would be almost pointless.

Soulassassin,
The terrorization of Firaxis by angry Greeks does not guarantee inclusion of the civ in our list Again what should be in or not is a different matter than what we already know about the civs that are included.

The new pointers are:
_ign says that the civs will be 16 (so that makes 3 sources: ign,gamespot, isreali site)
_ ign reaffirms what we already know about uniques. It aslo adds some new info for example the unique unit of the French will be Musketeers, but as Locutus says it's not Firaxis so it's not conclusive.

	27-05-2001 01:46									#35
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I'd like to see Pericles though... What do you think?

	27-05-2001 02:56									#36
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Well, Pericles certainlty brings to mind the Golden Century of Athens but considering that all perfectionist civs are most of the times dust in Civ 2, I'd like to have an expansionist figure like Alexander

If the Turks are in (which I hope they will be although I am increasingly worried about having olny 16 civs) which leader would you like?

It might be Ataturk but if the Ottomans are in I'd say Suleiman the Magnificent.

	27-05-2001 03:16									#37
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that made perfect sense, Eli...

making a spam post in which he tells me to stop spam, what a juvenile bullsh!t

	27-05-2001 04:11									#38
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quote: [SIZE=1][SIZE]Good point. In fact, I don't know much about the American Civil War but I understand that many of the generals that fought each other in that war were in fact close friends before and even during the war and there was no division between north and south until that very war.

Many of the later Civil War General did fight in the Mexican War and therefore knew each other

quote: Thank you for your excellent explanations on Indians, that clarifies a lot. It does indeed seem unlikely that the Iroquois would rely heavily on horses in the woods. That gives us two small but not unimportant clues that the Native American Civ isn't the Iroquois, the round houses behind the leader and the horse unit, while all other clues indicate that they are. Since 2 Native American Civs seems unlikely (at least to me), no matter what the Civ is, it's not gonna make much sense. I guess Firaxis' artists were at least partially lead by prejudices and cliches rather than by pure facts (unless I'm missing something). There are two clues that this Native American civ in fact isn't the Iroquois: the houses behind the leader picture are small and round rather than long and square and the unit is a horseman while the Iroquois lived in woods and didn't rely heavily on horses.

The picture of the Indian brave is Iroquois because of the Mohawk hair cut. Plains Indian did not cut their hair for the most part that I'm aware of.


[QUOTE]CONFEDERATES. As referred to in a Swedish article, a Great Military Leader in Civ 3 could be Stonewall Jackson. Apolytoner Arator argued that this leader is impossible to be in the same civ as Lincoln (=100% confirmed leader of the Americans). Other Apolytoners disagree though, arguing that he's more likely to be an American.[/QUOTE

A. Lincoln asked R.E. Lee to become Commanding General of the U.S. Army a few weeks before South Carolina succeeded from the Union.

	27-05-2001 06:42									#39
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I have a fealing that the mongol leader ghangis khan is in fact the barb leader. as was atilla in ctp2. I believe that the mongols did little to add to civ, and lasted only as long as thier leader.(after his death his empire crumbled and the remenants were not even a close resemblance to the empire he controlled.) so with this reasoning i think khan is a barb leader and with this civ removed, we will recieve a much more deserving one in thier place.

	27-05-2001 07:06									#40
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The new updated IGN report is stating 16 Civs, twice.
Locutus: Without Unique Units how long would it take to add a Civ? And then with one Unique Unit how long would it take to add a Civ? The reason that I ask that question is, they (Firaxis) could wait until a week or so before going Gold to determine how many Civs they will have in the game.

	27-05-2001 10:11									#41
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 The new updated IGN report is stating 16 Civs, twice. Locutus: Without Unique Units how long would it take to add a Civ? And then with one Unique Unit how long would it take to add a Civ? The reason that I ask that question is, they (Firaxis) could wait until a week or so before going Gold to determine how many Civs they will have in the game.

I would have to believe it would take minutes to add a civ without unique elements. With unique elements though it will take at least a month to make sure the new civ balances with all the rest of them. So it would seem that the Firaxis team probably has their 16 civs that they have been working with making sure that giving the Romans an ancient unit doesn't allow them to win early and also to make sure the U.S. F-15 does not guarantee victory.

So, I don't think with unique civs Firaxis can wait to decide who is in the game.

	27-05-2001 10:56									#42
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First let me say that I am Canadian, and I consider my country to be the best place in the world to live.

But a civilization III empire based on Canada?! Um, no. It is just silly. Canada was never a world military power, nor will it ever be. Its just a peaceful little ex-colony of england. It has no long history reaching back to ancient, or even medieval times (same for the Americans but they at least have had some big wars), and doesn't really have a great historic leader. Who will Canada's leader be? Pearson? Trudeau? And then who is the hero of Canada? Joseph Brant? Unique unit to Canada? Geese that poop on you? I don't think Canada will make the cut.

	27-05-2001 14:30									#43
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quote: Originally posted by me_irate I have a fealing that the mongol leader ghangis khan is in fact the barb leader. as was atilla in ctp2. I believe that the mongols did little to add to civ, and lasted only as long as thier leader.(after his death his empire crumbled and the remenants were not even a close resemblance to the empire he controlled.) so with this reasoning i think khan is a barb leader and with this civ removed, we will recieve a much more deserving one in thier place.

I don't agree. There were some successors of Gengis who still had power over the whole state - Güyük, Berke...
For centuries, China was ruled by mongol emerors and large parts of Asia were mongolized. Yes, the empire fell to pieces, but Mongols had a lasting impact on Asia and world history.
Gengis a barbarian? No way!

	27-05-2001 20:51									#44
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Pot 'n kettle, Eli, pot 'n kettle...

paiktis,
You have a point there.
What? So you're temporary departure was just an elaborate trick to get me to take over the moderatorship of this thread? You sneaky bastard!

I guess you're right about the Greeks. But what about the Russians then? I don't recall Firaxis ever confirming that the MiG would be their Unique Unit, did I overlook something here then?

joseph,
Thanks for all the info, that's very useful. I'll add it to the summary.

Adding a civ without unique elements would still take at the very least a few days: you'd have to do research to find a suitable leader and a proper list with city names (Activision really screwed up in this area with the CtP series but I don't think Firaxis will make the same mistake) and get everything past your lawyers and QA people. With unique elements it would take even longer, as it need thorough testing, playbalancing and the design of lots of new art. Not only would it be time-consuming to add a new civ, it would also be expensive so it's not likely Firaxis will do it.

Designing software is an incredibly complex process and as much work as possible is done well before the actual coding starts. When the actual coding starts all kinds of other issues come up and you'll want to be able to focus on those issues rather than on (at that point) unimportant details that could have been taken care off much earlier. Determining which civs will be in is one of those things that can very well be done early on in the process, so it's most likely that Firaxis has indeed done this early on. Unless there are some serious problems with existing civs (I can't think of anything that could cause this myself), Firaxis will go with whatever civs they decided to put in months ago.

me_irate,
Contrary to what seems to be common believe, the Mongol empire did *not* fall apart after Kahn. It was divided among his four sons (and IIRC later reunited under one leader again but I'm not sure about that) but continued to exist as a single empire for at least another century. It wasn't until the Ming dynasty overthrew the Mongol rule in China and an almost simultaneous change of power in Persia that the Mongol empire really fell apart (I'm not good with dates as far as Asian history goes but check Britannica.com if you need them). Until then the Mongols controlled the largest empire the world has ever known, reason enough to treat them as a seperate civ rather than as barbarians.

Pilfur,

quote: I consider my country to be the best place in the world to live

Doesn't everybody? Of his own country that is

Canada may seem unlikely but evidence is evidence so we have to consider the possibility. I think it's unlikely too but as said a dozen times before, this thread not about "should be" or "shouldn't be" but about facts.


So far, based on our evidence, we know that:

Edit: For your convenience I indicated the changes in red (hope I didn't overlook anything though)

100% CONFIRMED. These civs ARE in CIV 3:

1. AMERICANS - Leader (100% confirmed), city names, Unique Unit (F15)
2. GERMANS - Unique Unit (Panzer). Multiple text references
3. CHINESE - Leader (100% confirmed)
4. ROMANS - Leader, city name (capital), unique unit (Legion)
5. FRENCH - Leader (100% confirmed), dialogue window of the French (Unique Unit: Musketeer?)
6. RUSSIANS - Unique Unit (MiG)
7. ZULUS - Unique Unit (Impi)
8. ENGLISH - Leader (100% confirmed)
9. EGYPTIANS - Leader (100% pharaoh ), definite text reference
10. INDIANS - Leader (100% confirmed)
11. MONGOLS (90%)- or JAPANESE?(10%) Leader * (see civ 18, Japanese)
12. IROQUOIS - Leader (100% Native American), city names, text references Unique Unit (75% Native American Unique Unit - 25% Military Leader) ** (see below)

** There are two clues that this Native American civ in fact isn't the Iroquois: the houses behind the leader picture are small and round rather than long and square and the unit is a horseman while the Iroquois lived in woods and didn't rely heavily on horses. All other clues (text references, hair cut, city names) point to Iroquois.


HIGH PROPABILITY. This civ is almost certaintly in:

13. GREEKS - City name (capital), possible Unique Unit (Hoplites), text reference.
In the screenshot Athens is building Hoplites. In greek «OPLITES» means "men-at-arms". This word is still in use today in Greece and it still means the same thing as it did in Ancient Greece.


EVIDENCE ABOUT OTHER CIVS (which means they could be in or not):

14. PERSIANS - City names (capital)
15. SPANISH - City name: Salamanca (which historically was once a Roman city)
16. BABYLONIANS - City name
17. AZTECS - City names


SUGGESTIONS BASED ON CLUES (weak clues but we report them):

18. JAPANESE (open for debate plz see the samurai(?) unit at http://viewer.fgnonline.com/fgn_med...ttp%3A%2F%2Fwww .fgnonline.com%2Fmedia%2Fpc%2Fnews%2Funits.jpg
* Also see http://www.infogrames-expo.com/screens/civ05b.jpg Gheghis Chan of the Mongols or a Japanese leader? (All votes except one say Ghengis).

19. VIKINGS (?) Very weak clues. See above mention URL for the boat: Viking Longboat?

20. ISRAELIS. Apolytoner Eli has pointed out that according to a israeli site, Israel is in.

21. CANADIANS. City name (Montreal). The city name is NOT on the map, but on a civ 3 window.

22. CONFEDERATES. As refered to in a swedish article, a Great Military Leader in Civ 3 could be Stonewell Jackson. Apolytoner Arator argued that this leader is impossible to be in the same civ as Lincoln (=100% confirmed leader of the Americans). Many other Apolytoners disagree though, arguing that he's more likely to be an American, among other reasons because (as joseph1944 pointed out) he served for the American Army before joinging the Confederates and was even asked by Lincoln to serve as Commanding General under him only weeks before South Carolina succeeded from the Union.


--------------------------------------------------------
The evidence is categorized as such:

Leader= We have a picture of the leader of the corresponting civ.
Unique Unit= We know that the particular unique unit belongs to the corresponding civ
Text reference= The civ has been mentioned by Firaxis in their web site or in interviews by their CEO
City names= The names of cities that clearly belong to the corresponding civ are included in scrrenshots of the game
All other clues= All other clues are reported next to the civ name.

-------------------------CIV FACTS-----------------------

+ Firaxis said the made NO official announcement regarding the number of civs that may or may not be included in the game.
+ In a Gamespot article its says that civs will be 16.
+ An israeli site says that civs will be 16
+ In an IGN preview it says that there will be 16 civs.

--------------------------POINTERS-------------------------

The city names in the screen shots can be from an extra city names list or could have been arbitrarily written be members of Firaxis. So city names in screenshots doesn't guarantee that a civ will be in. Examples: Kerplakistan & Huntsville, possibly others.

	28-05-2001 00:26									#45
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quote: 22. CONFEDERATES. As refered to in a swedish article, a Great Military Leader in Civ 3 could be Stonewell Jackson. Apolytoner Arator argued that this leader is impossible to be in the same civ as Lincoln (=100% confirmed leader of the Americans). Many other Apolytoners disagree though, arguing that he's more likely to be an American, among other reasons because (as joseph1944 pointed out) he served for the American Army before joinging the Confederates and was even asked by Lincoln to serve as Commanding General under him only weeks before South Carolina succeeded from the Union.

Robert E Lee was asked to be commander of Union forces before the Civil War, not Stonewall Jackson, but only AFTER several states seceded. South Carolina seceded before Lincoln was even elected. Lee didn't do it because Virginia seceded from the Union. But yes many US Civil War generals served together in the Mexican War.

Also has it been confirmed that the Russian unique unit is a MiG? I mean to have MiGs and F-15s as special units in about the same time period...I don't like it. Also I think that Cossacks are a more obvious choice

	28-05-2001 01:01									#46
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Looks like I'm gonna have to do some research myself to figure out the facts about Jackson... Don't have time for that now though.

Well, I hope paiktis or someone else can enlighten us about the Russians, a I agree MiG seems to be a bit strange. But if it's not a MiG, the Hind, T-34 or An-225 would seem more logical choices for the Russians if you ask me...

	28-05-2001 01:10									#47
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 If the Turks are in (which I hope they will be although I am increasingly worried about having olny 16 civs) which leader would you like? It might be Ataturk but if the Ottomans are in I'd say Suleiman the Magnificent.

I always say that I prefer the Civ II set, but if they decide to include us as a civ; either Ataturk, Mehmet II or Suleiman would be the best choice. I guess CTP had Osman I, who was only the chieftain of the tribe which grew up into the Ottoman Empire, so that wasn't a good choice. On the other hand, what would be the special unit for the Turks? The Janissaries seem to be the best choice, but what kind of a standard-unit transformation would that be? Mad-kind-of-musketeer-horseman-swordsman-cannoneer-who-would-not-stop-revolting-until-it-screws-up-the-empire? Well, anyway, nobody seems to be excited about the Turks in Civ anyway, as the poll also showed , even I'm not excited!

	28-05-2001 01:48									#48
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A lot of people have complained about the probable inclusion of only 16 civs in Civ3, while not confirmed, all current announcements/previews do little to change this likely possibility. Slightly off-topic MOO3 recently announced a similar change, but Quiksilver released an explanation, the arguements for such a reduction are almost identical for Civ3 as they are for MOO3.

Link: MOO3 16 Races Announcement

	28-05-2001 01:49									#49
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Locutus,
It wasn't a trick! I was really frustrated with the loading times of the forums. It would take 1 whole minute to open up a thread. I was exasperated and I really thought that was it
But the widrawl syndroms proved too big
If you feel tired just say the word and I'm up for it Although I still can make coffee waiting for some threads to open

About the Russian Mig.

Previous research has shown us that Russians will have the Mig as their special unit.
_We have a picture (actually 2 pictures) of the Mig.
_We have written confirmation by Firaxis that these images are pictures of Mig.
_We have multiple text references that the Mig will be the special Unit of the Russians in previews.

I think that constitues a certainty about the Russians.

Bagdar,
I can think of a lot of civs I rather not have than have and have the Turks. The unique unit of the Turks can be as arbitrary as all the other unique units we now have about other civs

	28-05-2001 01:53									#50
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Serapis,
Like you after following the research for so long I am very close to be convinced that we will only have 16 civs. Don't forget that the disclaimer of Firaxis about the number of civs was made in a thread that discussed the number of civs that will be playing SIMULTANIOUSLY in the game.

It cannot be substantiated but my instinct tells me we will have 16.

	28-05-2001 10:52									#51
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Would someone tell how to use this scanner that I have to upload message to this forum?

Last edited by on 28-05-2001 at 11:06

	28-05-2001 11:35									#52
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First off, let me say I don't really know what I'm talking about.

That said,

For military power, I'm sure I've heard somewhere that Canada had the 3rd largest naval fleet in the world after WWII. Canada was involved in both world wars, the boer war and either korea, veitnam or both. (I could research this stuff, but it's not really worth the effort for this...) These are, I think, all the "big wars" the US has been involved in recently (no the Gulf War doesn't count, IMHO).

The WWII Corvette (naval destroyer/escort) could possibly be a special unit.

Trudeau or Sir John A MacDonald could be possible leaders.

Gen. Isaac Brock or Gen. Wolfe could be heros.

Lastly, perhaps Canadians could be included as a selling-point? I imagine a few people could be persuaded that way...

quote: Originally posted by Pilfur First let me say that I am Canadian, and I consider my country to be the best place in the world to live. But a civilization III empire based on Canada?! Um, no. It is just silly. Canada was never a world military power, nor will it ever be. Its just a peaceful little ex-colony of england. It has no long history reaching back to ancient, or even medieval times (same for the Americans but they at least have had some big wars), and doesn't really have a great historic leader. Who will Canada's leader be? Pearson? Trudeau? And then who is the hero of Canada? Joseph Brant? Unique unit to Canada? Geese that poop on you? I don't think Canada will make the cut.

	28-05-2001 12:42									#53
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Come on, every country can name one or two things where they were a bit important. Before Canada I'd include Poland (you know, they are more people, existed longer and fought in more wars) or - I didn't suggest this earlier because I thought it would be biased - my homecountry Austria (once a really important country, different from canadians who are living behind the forest obviously being a bit megalomanics.

	29-05-2001 02:29									#54
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I never said Canada *should* be included. I just said it could be, and I disagreed with the statements

quote: Canada was never a world military power

and
(Canada)

quote: doesn't really have a great historic leader.

and suggested a few semi-reasonable options for leader, unit etc.

I do however think Austria, or some variation thereof, should be included due to perceived historical importance (of mine anyway).

	29-05-2001 02:32									#55
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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA.

canada.

	29-05-2001 10:15									#56
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Lincoln was elected President on Nov. 6, 1860. Took office on March 4, 1861. Several states said that if Lincoln was elected they would leave the Union, and they did leave the Union. The Civil War started on April 12, 1861.

	29-05-2001 12:06									#57
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 Lincoln was elected President on Nov. 6, 1860. Took office on March 4, 1861. Several states said that if Lincoln was elected they would leave the Union, and they did leave the Union. The Civil War started on April 12, 1861.

Okay, South Carolina seceded after Lincoln was elected but before he took office, on Dec 20, 1860.

	29-05-2001 17:52									#58
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Serapis, Like you after following the research for so long I am very close to be convinced that we will only have 16 civs. Don't forget that the disclaimer of Firaxis about the number of civs was made in a thread that discussed the number of civs that will be playing SIMULTANIOUSLY in the game. It cannot be substantiated but my instinct tells me we will have 16.

I really hope for more simultaneous civs, but all the previews point to a conservative iteration of Civ, with that in mind, I figure they'll stick close to 7, maybe 8 simultaneous civs, with 16 to choose from. And as you point out, the Firaxis post claimed that no announcement was made with regards to simultaneous civs, no denial of the inclusion of only 16 civs was made, but we can always hope for more

	29-05-2001 19:50									#59
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Sure, paiktis, sure. That what I would say if I were you But I don't have any problems the current situation...

Thanks for the info on the Russians. Guess that makes them a certainty then.

	29-05-2001 22:59									#60
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 The picture of the Indian brave is Iroquois because of the Mohawk hair cut. Plains Indian did not cut their hair for the most part that I'm aware of.

To clarify, we were not discussing a leader picture, but the graphic posted by
vgraph on 23-05-2001 at 08:45.
The horseman with the feathered headress. He's too small to even see hair, so I suspect you are describing another graphic.