23-05-2001 01:04									#1
	why i dont want realistic movement and combat Tired of ads?

CIv, it has rightly been pointed out is not a "history simulator". It is a fairly abstract game, that illustrates historical pronciple, while being highly innaccurate in the details.

As the discussion has taken place around certain issues, the forms of govt, the culture and religious models, and the issue of unique civs, it has often been pointed out that this is just a game and that too much focus on historical accuracy may burden gameplay, and is untrue to what civ is.

Fundamentally, i agree. I do beleive that a "history simulator" could be a great game. while i have not yet played EU, i am very excited by it. I realize that there are issues with a 6000 year history simulator, but even if those can be resolved, the civ franchise is almost certainly not the place to do it.

It is in that context that i must look at issues relating to infinite RR movement and the like. I do NOT want to see an effort to make relative movement by road, rail, ship and air accurate. It is the innaccuracies of civs military and movement model that make it clear to anyone playing this that its "just a game" In that context even unique civs are not dangerous.

If, OTOH, the combat and movement systems were to be improved to such degree that it became a more "grognard" accurate game, with less need for suspension of disbelief, the game would then be seriously out of balance. That is the social-political-cultural model would be out of balance with the military model - we would have an accurate war game with a cartoonish "history game" - which unfortunately might lead some to give excessive weight to the worst features of the "history game" (like unique civs)

Hail to thee howie-railroad rush - you protect us from racialism

LOTM

	23-05-2001 11:56									#2
	Tired of ads?

From what I've seen I don't think there's much danger of Civ 3 being radically altered for more realistic movement, but I think you're post is absolutely right.

EU btw, IS a pretty fun game...

	23-05-2001 16:52									#3
	Fresh Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I Like that take. It's a good thing you spelled this out, because a lot of people might only have seen traces of this arguement in other threads. I am, however, surprised not to see any flaming posts yet.

	23-05-2001 18:22									#4
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quote: I do NOT want to see an effort to make relative movement by road, rail, ship and air accurate. It is the innaccuracies of civs military and movement model that make it clear to anyone playing this that its "just a game" In that context even unique civs are not dangerous.

I completely agree, and I also think it is simply impossible to be absolutely accurate in this field. Thank of ancient armies, Roman and Macedonian for instance, they could march very long distances in very short time. So if one turn is a year, accurate movement would mean that even ancient foot soldiers could walk around in the whole mediterranean. So the movement rates should be logical (motorized units faster than foot soldiers), but absolute accuracy is not needed and also not desirable...

	23-05-2001 20:48									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Thanks for making this one serious, LOTM. I completely agree, and I think that we should only change movement rates to balance the game, not to mould the game into somebody's concept of realism.

	23-05-2001 23:40									#6
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Actually, what made Civ so great was its realism. It was a very realistic game for the time it was made. I think that if we incorporated more realism in the game it would improve the game. But at the same time, you have to keep changing the game to keep the fun gameplay. And as a computer programmer, that's your job, to cater to the user. I think that if somebody took Civ and made it the most realistic it could be, then people would play it and like it. Because there isn't an accurate realistic game like Civilization, you have no idea if realism means bad gameplay. Keep an open mind. And trust in the fact that the people making such a game could do it in a fashion that would include the incredibly addictive, fun gameplay of the original CIV.

Plus, a game that is truly real and historically accurate would give people a better understanding of the world they live in. Games can be fun and informative you know.

Don't worry, once I get a hold of Civ 3's source code, I'm going to try and improve its realism.