23-05-2001 01:36									#1
	Which of the following 10 Civs NOT included in Civ II do you most want in Civ III? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I want them all. LOL.

	23-05-2001 02:35									#2
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I want them all, too! Well, once we know who's in and who's out we can start building custom civs. I'm sure we'll have at least as much flexibility as with Civ 2. I already have some city lists worked out, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

	23-05-2001 02:47									#3
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I can live without the Confederates and the Polynesians...

	23-05-2001 02:56									#4
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Although the Dutch were very important, I always wanted to be the Polynesians.

	23-05-2001 02:58									#5
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Actually Confederates have never been a civ.
They were never accepted as an own nation.

Austria I say!

I have said it so often now, but its hopeless. In fact I dont care anymore.

Ata

	23-05-2001 03:18									#6
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A few comments:

Italians are covered my the romans as far as I am concerned.

Austro-Hungarians. Hungarians might have a problem that you have put them together with the Austrains. A hungarian acquintance of mine never stops telling me how opressed the hungarians were under austrian rule.

Which Arabs? Everybody sais Arabs but which ones? It's like saying «Europeans» I think.

Other than that that's a nice list I think.

	23-05-2001 03:24									#7
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i voted for the Dutch, but now im having secnd thoughts. BTW there is a rumor that FIraxis is gonna include the Isrealites.

	23-05-2001 03:32									#8
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 A few comments: Italians are covered my the romans as far as I am concerned.

Yea, but the problem is with "Romans" all the great Italian cities have Latin names instead of their Medieval/Modern equivalents. Perhaps Firaxis could give us a Roman/Italian toggle on that great Civ.

Similarly, perhaps with the "Greeks", they could give us a Greek/Byzantine toggle.

quote: Austro-Hungarians. Hungarians might have a problem that you have put them together with the Austrains. A hungarian acquintance of mine never stops telling me how opressed the hungarians were under austrian rule.

Even so, inclusion of Austro-Hungarians would give us all the great cities of central Europe incompassed by the Austro-Hungarian Empire -- Vienna, Budapest, Prague, Belgrade, etc. This is much better than just Austria.

quote: Which Arabs? Everybody sais Arabs but which ones? It's like saying «Europeans» I think.

The answer is: ALL OF THEM. The Arabs swept through the Middle East and North Africa all the way to Spain. That is the Arab world. Any of the cities in that area should be fair game, incliuding Casablanca, Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli, Cairo, Bagdad, Mecca, Medina, Damascus, Amman, Riyahd, Kuwait, Muskat, Oman, etc.

	23-05-2001 03:37									#9
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Israel has been around for a whopping 52 years. How about not.
I think Arabs; they were a major player in world civilization, were the most advanced at one time, and should definetaly be included.

P.S. Confederates? Rigghtt....they really played a huge role in world civilization!

	23-05-2001 03:41									#10
	Assuming the Civ II 21 + the 10 above are included, which should be #32: Increase Your PM Length

Should it be:

Byzantines?
Danes?
Swedes?
Poles?
Ethiopians?
Mayans?
Scandinavians (Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, Fins combined)?

Since the Byzantines are covered by the Greeks; the Poles by the Russians, Germans, and Austro-Hungarians; the Mayans by the Aztecs (sort of), I tend to prefer:

Scandinavians!

	23-05-2001 03:46									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Andreiguy Israel has been around for a whopping 52 years. How about not.

Uh, try 3500 years. They are both an Ancient and Modern civ, with great civilizational influence. They should be included.

quote: I think Arabs; they were a major player in world civilization, were the most advanced at one time, and should definetaly be included.

Agreed.

quote: P.S. Confederates? Rigghtt....they really played a huge role in world civilization!

The Confederate South may have lost their bid for national independence, but they were a major 250+year old civ in the Americas, distinct from the Yankee North (Americans). I think they ought to be included

	23-05-2001 04:02									#12
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How about having certain Civilizations available in the early part of the game and then as revolutions occur and such, civ's would change their name, break into different civs, etc.

The Italians, Spanish, Greeks, French, English, and most Germanic tribes were all part of the Roman Empire at one time.

The Dutch spawned from Viking and Germanic tribes. The current "Arab" world is the result of hundreds of different civilizations growing and changing.

Civilization is all about change. To be realistic, you need to include every nationality in the world, past and present. And code through different events how each civ would appear. Maybe when the Romans die, their Empire would split into the Franks, Hispans, and Italians. Later, they would change their names to the French, Spanish, etc. Or perhaps when a city revolts and becomes independent, then a new civ is created. (Revolutionary WAR, hello people the UNITED STATES). I can't believe Sid wouldn't include such an idea in the first civilization.

	23-05-2001 05:50									#13
	ahem! incans and arabs were included! Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

instant genuine arabs in civ2

its simple and can be done for both arabs and incans

Find and delete

@LEADERS
Caesar, Livia, 0, 1, 1, Romans, Roman, 0, 1, 1, 1, Dictator, Dictator, 2, Imperator, Imperatrix
Hammurabi, Ishtari, 0, 2, 0, Babylonians, Babylonian, -1, -1, 1,
Frederick, Maria Theresa, 0, 3, 3, Germans, German, 1, -1, 1, 4, Archbishop, Archbishop, 6, Chancellor, Chancellor
Ramesses, Cleopatra, 1, 4, 0, Egyptians, Egyptian, 0, 0, 1, 1, Pharaoh, Pharaoh, 2, Great Pharaoh, Great Pharaoh
Abe Lincoln, E. Roosevelt, 0, 5, 1, Americans, American, -1, 0, 1, 4, Reverend, Reverend, 5, Speaker, Speaker
Alexander, Hippolyta, 1, 6, 1, Greeks, Greek, 0, 1, -1, 6, Prime Minister, Prime Minister
Mohandas Gandhi,Indira Gandhi, 0, 7, 2, Indians, Indian, -1, -1, 0, 2, Maharaja, Maharaja,
Lenin, Catherine the Great, 1, 1, 3, Russians, Russian, 1, 0, -1, 2, Czar, Czarina, 4, Patriarch, Matriarch
Shaka, Shakala, 0, 2, 0, Zulus, Zulu, 1, 0, 0,
Louis XIV, Joan of Arc, 0, 3, 3, French, French, 1, 1, 1, 4, Archbishop, Archbishop, 6, Premier, Premier
Montezuma, Nazca, 0, 4, 0, Aztecs, Aztec, 0, -1, 1,
Mao Tse Tung, Wu Zhao, 0, 5, 2, Chinese, Chinese, 0, 0, 1, 3, Chairman, Chairperson
Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, 1, 6, 3, English, English, 0, 1, 0, 4, Lord Protector, Lady Protector, 6, Prime Minister, Prime Minister
Genghis Khan, Bortei, 0, 7, 0, Mongols, Mongol, 1, 1, -1,
Cunobelin, Boadicea, 1, 1, 0, Celts, Celtic, -1, 1, 0, 4, Druid, Druid
Tokugawa, Amaterasu, 0, 2, 2, Japanese, Japanese, 1, -1, -1, 2, Shogun, Shogun, 6, Prime Minister, Prime Minister
Canute, Gunnhild, 1, 3, 3, Vikings, Viking, 1, 1, 0, 1, Warlord, Warlord
Philip II, Isabella, 1, 4, 3, Spanish, Spanish, -1, 1, -1, 4, Archbishop, Archbishop
Xerxes, Scheherezade, 0, 5, 0, Persians, Persian, 0, -1, 0, 2, Shah, Shah, 4, Ayatollah, Ayatollah
Hannibal, Dido, 0, 6, 1, Carthaginians, Carthaginian, 0, 0, -1,
Sitting Bull, Sacajawea, 0, 7, 0, Sioux, Sioux, 0, 0, 0, 1, Chief, Chief, 2, Great Chief, Great Chief
Saladin, ..., 0, 5, Arabs, Arab, 1, 0, 1, 4, Ayatollah, Ayatollah, 2, Sultan, Sultana
Atawallpa, ..., 0, 1, Incas, Inca, -1, 1, 1,

To play a game with arabs Replace with this

@LEADERS
Caesar, Livia, 0, 1, 1, Romans, Roman, 0, 1, 1, 1, Dictator, Dictator, 2, Imperator, Imperatrix
Saladin, ..., 0, 5, 1, Arabs, Arab, 1, 0, 1, 4,
Frederick, Maria Theresa, 0, 3, 3, Germans, German, 1, -1, 1, 4, Archbishop, Archbishop, 6, Chancellor, Chancellor
Ramesses, Cleopatra, 1, 4, 0, Egyptians, Egyptian, 0, 0, 1, 1, Pharaoh, Pharaoh, 2, Great Pharaoh, Great Pharaoh
Abe Lincoln, E. Roosevelt, 0, 5, 1, Americans, American, -1, 0, 1, 4, Reverend, Reverend, 5, Speaker, Speaker
Alexander, Hippolyta, 1, 6, 1, Greeks, Greek, 0, 1, -1, 6, Prime Minister, Prime Minister
Mohandas Gandhi,Indira Gandhi, 0, 7, 2, Indians, Indian, -1, -1, 0, 2, Maharaja, Maharaja,
Lenin, Catherine the Great, 1, 1, 3, Russians, Russian, 1, 0, -1, 2, Czar, Czarina, 4, Patriarch, Matriarch
Shaka, Shakala, 0, 2, 0, Zulus, Zulu, 1, 0, 0,
Louis XIV, Joan of Arc, 0, 3, 3, French, French, 1, 1, 1, 4, Archbishop, Archbishop, 6, Premier, Premier
Montezuma, Nazca, 0, 4, 0, Aztecs, Aztec, 0, -1, 1,
Mao Tse Tung, Wu Zhao, 0, 5, 2, Chinese, Chinese, 0, 0, 1, 3, Chairman, Chairperson
Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, 1, 6, 3, English, English, 0, 1, 0, 4, Lord Protector, Lady Protector, 6, Prime Minister, Prime Minister
Genghis Khan, Bortei, 0, 7, 0, Mongols, Mongol, 1, 1, -1,
Cunobelin, Boadicea, 1, 1, 0, Celts, Celtic, -1, 1, 0, 4, Druid, Druid
Tokugawa, Amaterasu, 0, 2, 2, Japanese, Japanese, 1, -1, -1, 2, Shogun, Shogun, 6, Prime Minister, Prime Minister
Canute, Gunnhild, 1, 3, 3, Vikings, Viking, 1, 1, 0, 1, Warlord, Warlord
Philip II, Isabella, 1, 4, 3, Spanish, Spanish, -1, 1, -1, 4, Archbishop, Archbishop
Xerxes, Scheherezade, 0, 5, 0, Persians, Persian, 0, -1, 0, 2, Shah, Shah, 4, Ayatollah, Ayatollah
Hannibal, Dido, 0, 6, 1, Carthaginians, Carthaginian, 0, 0, -1,
Sitting Bull, Sacajawea, 0, 7, 0, Sioux, Sioux, 0, 0, 0, 1, Chief, Chief, 2, Great Chief, Great Chief
Atawallpa, ..., 0, 1, Incas, Inca, -1, 1, 1,


To make incans copy incans to where aztecs were and aztecs to where incans were..

they both are diesigned into the game and can easily included

good enough well try it

	23-05-2001 05:52									#14
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For a civ to be included, it must have been a substantial empire at some stage. Therefore, the confederates are out. For that matter, why are the Americans in? As the world's current only superpower, and the biggest influence of the 20th century, they have a good argument. However, the main reason is purely commercial. Who in the U.S will buy it if they're not included?

This is obviously the same reason why Firaxis is considering including the Confederates, and probably also the Israelis! The Iroquois are another civ that are there for commercial (and perhaps politically correct) reasons. Hey, Australia was included in CTP, so the reason was obvious.

As for the arabs, that's why the Persians should be included. The Arabs are basically a religious group, so shouldn't be included. Sure, Islam was a cultural empire which spread across a large chunk of the world in a short period of time, but so did christianity and Budhism. Religious boundaries are ambiguous, but empire boundaries are generally not. If you have arabs, then how do you separate Germans from British from French??

Actually, as silly as it first seemed to me, the Polynesians do count, as they populated thousand of islands across the entire Pacific, and they weren't always necessarily peaceful occupance of uninhabited islands, either. Just because anthropological records are minimal, doesn't mean they weren't an empire.

	23-05-2001 05:55									#15
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youd be suprised how many americans bought cossacks...

	23-05-2001 06:11									#16
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The Arabs have had the most influence out of those, by far. I'd go with them.

If not the Arabs, then perhaps the Turks, Byzantines, Mayans, or Koreans. The Sioux and Vikings I can do without.

	23-05-2001 06:15									#17
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Well in my opinion the US has to be in. Not only cuz it is the biggest market for the game but it is also the birthplace of democracy. Yes i know it had help from a bunch of other Civ's but the democracy that most governments are using now is directly from the US. On top of that you have that we basically started the U.N.(it is basically part of Wilson's 14 points). There are many other reasons. But i mean what game company would be stupid enough not to. No offence to any romans but how many romans are gonna buy the game? None because the civ is now 3 or for contries. I can understand not putting the confederates in it. Although i think who ever said that revolutions should be in is right. I think it would be cool that even if u can only have 7 civs at once that if a revolutions occurs you can play with 8 or more. And it happened sooooooo much in history. That aboslutly has to be in the game. And in a greater effect then Civ 2. That was kind of lame. I think it will be w/ the cultural points and all. But going back to the topic i think that you should be able to have 500 civ's if you want. It makes sense to me. Why disclude a country? I alson think that you should be able to set the number of contries that play at one time. I realize 100 is unrealistic but at least 20. And if you don't like 20 u can put 7 like in Civ 2. Any ways that is my thoughts on the situation.

	23-05-2001 09:23									#18
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I don't understand how anyone could not consider putting the Vikings or Scandanavians in. The Vikings created a huge area of infuence over Northern Europe, and their Norman ancestors became the dominating race in Britain for many years. The Vikings were the first to voyage by sea to "The New World." Viking traders and settlers in modern-day Western Russia and Finland were called "Rus" from which we get "Russians."

So I demand that if the Vikings are not in, the Russians have no reason being in either.

	23-05-2001 11:50									#19
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I don't understand how anyone could not consider putting the Vikings or Scandanavians in.

Vikings were in CivII, the topic of this thread...

	23-05-2001 11:57									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Beckdawg Well in my opinion the US has to be in. Not only cuz it is the biggest market for the game but it is also the birthplace of democracy.

Since when?!! Sounds like another case of history reinvention by the Yanks! (The Patriot, U-571

quote: [SIZE=1]Yes i know it had help from a bunch of other Civ's but the democracy that most governments are using now is directly from the US.

Namely?

Canada? No
Australia? No
India? No
New Zealand? No
Phillippines? No
Germany? No

So, let's see.....Europe? No. Africa? Nope? Asia? Nosiree! Oceania? No way! Maybe Antarctica has some?

I'll be buggered if i can think of any!

	23-05-2001 13:41									#21
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quote: [SIZE=1] . Yes i know it had help from a bunch of other Civ's but the democracy that most governments are using now is directly from the US

Well, obviously this democracy isn`t working right. After what I`ve heard, the president of this great government wasn`t the presidents who got the most votes And besides, in US you have to be a millionaire to become president

Just wondered about something else, Who is the Austro-Hungarians? And when did they do anything great?

And, I think the Incas should be in the game. They were, after all, not very aggressive, and was maybe the most civilized civilization at the time. Until the Europeans came and destroyed it all

	23-05-2001 15:03									#22
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I voted for the Incans.

quote: Originally posted by Arator Uh, try 3500 years. They are both an Ancient and Modern civ, with great civilizational influence. They should be included.

The problem is it ceased to be a country for 2000 years. Also the Israelis didn't have much cultural influence. The Jews don't and have never believed in Christianity, which was in fact spreaded by the Romans.

	23-05-2001 16:25									#23
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Including Confederates would seem like a coldminded PR stunt to attract rednecks. It only existed for a few years as a independent country. Sure it did have some things that distincted them from the so called yankees as Arator pointed out but If such things would count then we should also divide a number of other empires, like china really should be divided into a number of different groups and cultures. The difference and history of the confederates might mean a lot to a large portion of potential buyers but I do think it's stretching it to far imho.

As for 'Scandinavians'; I can't agree with the name for starters. The fins have very little in common with the rest of the cultures (besides, it's a part of Sweden anyway ). There where times where most of scandinavia was more or less united under one crown but there has never been such a country as Scandinavia. Vikings where never a united country either. If any of the countries should be included as themselves it should be Denmark and/or Sweden since Finland was under swedish rule and Norway mostly under danish rule.

	23-05-2001 16:29									#24
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Well what about the Portuguese? At one point they were a major colonial power (a long time ago mind you) so they get my vote. I also think there are good grounds for including the Dutch as well in this one...

	23-05-2001 17:26									#25
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Don't really see the problem with including all civs that are wanted as long as they could be considered civs (thus not confederates and scandinavias) as long as there's no special graphics etc for each individual civ. All one need is a list of names for cities, titles and kings. How hard can that be compared to programming a entire computergame for a bunch of wiseguys like us?

	23-05-2001 17:37									#26
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quote: If any of the countries should be included as themselves it should be Denmark and/or Sweden since Finland was under swedish rule and Norway mostly under danish rule.

Don't forget that BEFORE it came under danish rule the Kingdom of Norway ruled most of the North Atlantic: Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes, Shetland, Orkneys, Hebrides, Isle of Man and parts of what is now western Sweden. They even had settlements in Newfoundland (Vinland) in North America.

Conclusion: 1) Rather Norway than Denmark or Sweden.
2) "Scandinavians" as one civ - don't think so
3) Stick with Vikings!!



BTW: I voted for the Arabs. But I also want Incas, and maybe even Portugal and the Dutch.

	23-05-2001 21:02									#27
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I see, the usual historical revisionism of norwegians

I have nothing against Norway but saying that it has had a greater impact on the world than Denmark or Sweden is somewhat absurd. Probably the best solution is to include neither, don't want to step the mighy norweigans on their feet.

	23-05-2001 22:02									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin I have nothing against Norway but saying that it has had a greater impact on the world than Denmark or Sweden is somewhat absurd.

Oops I'm sorry... Obviously I forgot about the enormous impact Swedish phenomenons like meatballs and ABBA have had on the world...

	23-05-2001 22:16									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The problem is it ceased to be a country for 2000 years. Also the Israelis didn't have much cultural influence. .

It is quite obvious that if Israel is included than the meaning is Jews. But they have the regular "Religion or Ethnic group" confusion, so they will write Israelis.

No cultural influence... pah...

quote: The Jews don't and have never believed in Christianity, which was in fact spreaded by the Romans

Formed by Jews, but that doesnt matter...

I voted for the Israelis btw(Doh!).

	24-05-2001 00:52									#30
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yet every one ignores my post arabs are in civ2!