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CapTVK
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Voorburg, the Netherlands, Europe
Jan 1970
time: 05:14
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Thue,
I voted against the proposed changes, although for a reason other than rule compliance. After playing Freeciv for over a year and playing Civ evolution for a month (which does have a very different rule set, but feels very much like Civ2) I would like to offer some constructive criticism...
Reason one is that after four years Freeciv doesn't even fully comply with the original Civ2 rules (FreeCiv still doesn't have the Civ2 trading system for instance, the Civ2 mapping system nor actual AI diplomacy).
Need to change the rules? Fine, but please inform players (hereby I mean your average run-of-the-mill gameplayer, not heavy duty linux users) how the game mechanics work. A good manual, walkthrough and a proper in- game help systems.
I have to be frank, if you haven't played Civ1 or 2 so you know "what is what". The in game help actually scares the user away. In the end I didn't even bother with the in game help and just trusted on my basic Civ2 knowledge.
Reason two has to do with gameplay. I think the fundamentals of Freeciv are strong (Although the AI needs be seperated from the original code). My argument here is that Freeciv was designed with a different framework then Civ1/2. Codewise Civ1/2 was far from perfect, there were plenty of bugs that became apparent if you played it long enough. But on the aspect of gameplay Civ rules supreme. The reason for this was that Sid and a slew of the orginal programmers spend alot of time tweaking and fiddling with the units and game mechanics: "tanks too strong?"- "Let's lower their value by 50% and see how it works" Reading through the Freeciv dev archives I get the impression that most deal with technical issues on client-server migration, GTK and localized versions. Were's the fun in tweaking and twiddling with the game mechanics? Civ evolution isn't finished either but it's more compelling than FreeCiv at the moment, gameplay wise that is...
Reason three has to do with the way in which Freeciv is represented. It's ...Tja, was soll ich sagen?...not very friendly towards outsiders. Even experimenting with the rules.txt is a huge barrier....I have to make a seperate directory, refer to that directory while starting up the server and then setup the game again. In Civ2 it's just a matter of changing the units.gif and rules.txt and away you go. The reason that Civ2 became so popular in the mod community (beating AC, CtP 1/2 and ToT) is because USERS could EASILY alter the game. If that barrier is set high, users are frustrated and you lose the mod community.
There are a few other points i could make here but the main thrust is this: What we see here is the struggle between order and creativity. Freeciv is technically sound, but it ain't "fun".
What's the deal with sound support for example? If you can't get all GPL SF/X at least use some of them, or do something else in the meantime. Why aren't there any national anthems in midi format for example? I would like to hear "rule brittania" if i come into contact with the English. 
In short: rule changes? Sure, as long as it makes FreeCiv fun to play I'm all for it. 
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Thue
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Copenhagen, Denmark
Jan 1970
time: 06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by CapTVK
Thue,
I voted against the proposed changes, although for a reason other than rule compliance. After playing Freeciv for over a year and playing Civ evolution for a month (which does have a very different rule set, but feels very much like Civ2) I would like to offer some constructive criticism...
Reason one is that after four years Freeciv doesn't even fully comply with the original Civ2 rules (FreeCiv still doesn't have the Civ2 trading system for instance, the Civ2 mapping system nor actual AI diplomacy).
Need to change the rules? Fine, but please inform players (hereby I mean your average run-of-the-mill gameplayer, not heavy duty linux users) how the game mechanics work. A good manual, walkthrough and a proper in- game help systems. |
The civ 2 trade system is broken. I hope nobody implements that.
Actually there is a manual: http://www.freeciv.org/manual/
I don't think anyone is maintaining it right now. If someone wants to I guess they could take over.
The manual is not distributed with the main freeciv package. Maybe it should be.
quote:
I have to be frank, if you haven't played Civ1 or 2 so you know "what is what". The in game help actually scares the user away. In the end I didn't even bother with the in game help and just trusted on my basic Civ2 knowledge.
Reason two has to do with gameplay. I think the fundamentals of Freeciv are strong (Although the AI needs be seperated from the original code). My argument here is that Freeciv was designed with a different framework then Civ1/2. Codewise Civ1/2 was far from perfect, there were plenty of bugs that became apparent if you played it long enough. But on the aspect of gameplay Civ rules supreme. The reason for this was that Sid and a slew of the orginal programmers spend alot of time tweaking and fiddling with the units and game mechanics: "tanks too strong?"- "Let's lower their value by 50% and see how it works" Reading through the Freeciv dev archives I get the impression that most deal with technical issues on client-server migration, GTK and localized versions. Were's the fun in tweaking and twiddling with the game mechanics? Civ evolution isn't finished either but it's more compelling than FreeCiv at the moment, gameplay wise that is... |
The civ 2 developers tweaked the diplomats too?
does civ evolution have multiplayer?
quote:
Reason three has to do with the way in which Freeciv is represented. It's ...Tja, was soll ich sagen?...not very friendly towards outsiders. Even experimenting with the rules.txt is a huge barrier....I have to make a seperate directory, refer to that directory while starting up the server and then setup the game again. In Civ2 it's just a matter of changing the units.gif and rules.txt and away you go. The reason that Civ2 became so popular in the mod community (beating AC, CtP 1/2 and ToT) is because USERS could EASILY alter the game. If that barrier is set high, users are frustrated and you lose the mod community. |
Actually it is pretty easy to change the rules in freeciv. Just edit the files in data/default. For changing teh graphics, just edit the gfx files.
Freeciv however gives you more flexibility if you want it. Civ 2 could only have one set of rules installed at a time. With freeciv you can have multiple rulesets coexisting. This of course requires a little bit of extra work, as you say.
Just editing the default files will work, just like in civ 2. There is just an alternative and way smarter way of doing it.
quote:
There are a few other points i could make here but the main thrust is this: What we see here is the struggle between order and creativity. Freeciv is technically sound, but it ain't "fun".
What's the deal with sound support for example? If you can't get all GPL SF/X at least use some of them, or do something else in the meantime. Why aren't there any national anthems in midi format for example? I would like to hear "rule brittania" if i come into contact with the English. |
It is a bit silly there isn't sound support in freeciv. It is real simple to add, and we could just put in sounds as we got them.
National anthems would be cool
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In short: rule changes? Sure, as long as it makes FreeCiv fun to play I'm all for it. |
Btw, fell free to start new threads in this forum...
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Darkstar
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Huntsville, AL, USA
May 1999
time: 23:14
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You do realize the AI Triremes never get lost at sea in Civ1/2. They are just ships to the AI.
As far as the randomness, leave it. And it's mp/move cost. So you aren't very likely to get into that mountain without good pointage.
It would certainly be EASIER to not include a special check in the code around a city for seeing what it can't. Then normal sighting would reveal all around the city in 2 squares, yes? It never made sense in Civ that it didn't, but if you are trying to port Civ2 and make it free/open source, shouldn't you maintain consistancy with the original?
Last edited by Darkstar on 08-06-2001 at 11:50
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23-05-2001 03:00
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