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It is the early Modern age and you are at war. What government is best? (Time out:0 days after 23-05-2001, 07:52)
Theocracy
Communism
Facism
Republic
Democracy
Monarchy
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faded glory is offline faded glory
King
This trash talking 2 bit dope dealer is about to learn respect for the law
Jan 2001
time: 05:14
  Old Post 23-05-2001 07:48
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What Government is best for war? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well, I must admit this new poll option, rules

TheBirdMan is offline TheBirdMan
Emperor
A real Master of CTP-PBEM - together with all the others.....
Sep 1999
time: 05:14
  Old Post 23-05-2001 08:49
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In Lungs Fast, Lung and Stavros clearly have advantage getting to facism first. Lung has nearly sweeped St. Jon out by now.

'Cause the rest (St. Jon, Paul and me) had no competing knowledge at the time, Lung attacked. Canons, musketeers etc. are no good when a facist wave comes in.

We got massproduction later (marines)- and we did get tankwarfare but Lung was first every time (because Lung got both the LE and the EL wonders!). We were - and still are - 5-6 turns behind.

IF - only if - one gets massproduction before any others "enemy" gets facism - making one able to defend (or attack) - then communism is the best for a very long time.

faded glory is offline faded glory
King
This trash talking 2 bit dope dealer is about to learn respect for the law
Jan 2001
time: 05:14
Arrow  Old Post 23-05-2001 09:35
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I agree with everything you said birdman . Except that Facist's have a huge problem. They dont have any ranged attack..... So If I have a stack of 9 facists vs 5 musketeers and 4 cannon;s. The Facists in the back-row, cannot offer support, unlike the cannons. Communism production exceeds facism's bye .75 and exceeds theocracy bye .90, so if one wants to send hordes of troop's. There is a possiblility that person may win. Especially when Machine-guns arrive.

blackice is offline blackice
Emperor
Canada where else...
Sep 2000
time: 00:14
  Old Post 23-05-2001 09:53 Visit blackice's homepage!
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It depends on the game at hand but Communism kicks but for production toss in London's you have a very good early war machine.

Swissy is offline Swissy
King
Chicago,IL,USA
Sep 1999
time: 23:14
  Old Post 23-05-2001 10:36
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I find that you have to use a combination of governments. Communism is good for building up your production power and getting your navy built up strong. Then I switch to Fascism for the better attack and the fascist units. One also has to remember that the longer you stay in communism, the more likely you are to have revolution strike from out of the blue. This has happen to me a few times in multiplayer games, mostly online but once in a pbem game.

When it comes right down to it, technocracy beats everything as the Plasmatica units are real tough to beat in a city with walls. Also, you can pump out fusion tanks and space fighters real fast.

Lung is offline Lung
King
of my princess Anastasia!
Mar 1999
time: 15:14
  Old Post 23-05-2001 12:27 Visit Lung's homepage!
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Fascism, baby. All the way! Actually, only for the early modern age, but that's what you're asking isn't it?

Max is right, of course, but it does depend on the circumstances. However, the way i see it is that on Fascism, the lower production against Communism is balanced by the increased military, which seems to make a big difference one-on-one. If you can match communism's units, you will beat them.

The fascists lacking ranged attack is irrelevant, as it's comparable unit, the Marine, lacks it as well (i think). Fascists have superior firepower to Marines, but less movement, although their higher attack strength makes them superb infantry, and a killer against Musketeers. Fascists also have a spy defence bonus, which helps you to keep your secrets. Also, the reasonable science helps to keep those science improvements ticking over, while your pollution is manageable.

Overall, Fascism makes the better government. That said, Fascism doesn't work so well if you're not intending or expecting to go to war. As it was in Lung's FAST! pbem, i would have changed to communism instead of fascism, except that Max went to Theocracy instead, presumably to keep up his science. This ruled out communism for me, as i would lose my science advantage. The straw that broke the camel's back was that Max and Jon fuelled my paranoia, yet for some reason failed to prepare adequately for any Australian offensive?! Well, perhaps you did, Tweety, but Jon certainly didn't!

Gee, i'd love to have Technocracy, though

Keygen is offline Keygen
Emperor
Athens, Hellas
Jan 2000
time: 07:14
  Old Post 23-05-2001 15:33 Visit Keygen's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Lung
Fascism, baby. All the way!


I think I know what avatar you are going to use when the ctp avatars will be available .


Besides strategy and the right use of your available resources (units, improvements, etc.) the most important issue of all, what everyone tries to maximize when he enters a war is production! Simply because with production you build military units and the highest production you have the fastest your units will enter service . What should I do with the fascists while I can have tanks or interceptors much faster than Fascism can?

TheBirdMan is offline TheBirdMan
Emperor
A real Master of CTP-PBEM - together with all the others.....
Sep 1999
time: 05:14
  Old Post 23-05-2001 18:09
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The great difference in my eyes is, that communism itself do not give any good unit. Facism does. At least you also have to know about massproduction if/when changing to communism.

Oil-refing and steel is good, but not good enough. It do you no good, that you rule the waves if you cannot hold you cities. Same as suicide!

And yes Lung. You are completely right in both your guesses. I changed back to theocracy in a loony hope to catch up with your science, I partly had success, I mean we got massproduction and tankwarfare only a few turns too late. And I was prepared, scouts (diplomats, musketeers and phalanx far ahead of my cities) and watchtowers - and lots of canons stacked with no-ranged units waiting to bombard the slow facist when they were comming. Just ask Stavros.

Edit:

Special offer to all small dictators: Buy my roman unitstacks. Now also with marines and tanks

Last edited by TheBirdMan on 23-05-2001 at 18:14

Lung is offline Lung
King
of my princess Anastasia!
Mar 1999
time: 15:14
  Old Post 24-05-2001 05:35 Visit Lung's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by TheBirdMan

Oil-refing and steel is good, but not good enough. It do you no good, that you rule the waves if you cannot hold you cities. Same as suicide!


I think i cured Jon's hard-on for battleships

quote:
And yes Lung. You are completely right in both your guesses. I changed back to theocracy in a loony hope to catch up with your science,


Actually, i thought it was quite clever! I could have such a lead in science otherwise that you would be screwed. Then again, if you all went commie, i may have done the same

jpww is offline jpww
King

Mar 2001
time: 00:14
  Old Post 24-05-2001 10:04 Visit jpww's homepage!
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Isn't Democracy the best gov. type for war? Just ask George.

drAgON1 is offline drAgON1
Warlord
Mobile,AL,USA
Mar 2001
time: 05:14
  Old Post 25-05-2001 06:36
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Commy rules baby!

faded glory is offline faded glory
King
This trash talking 2 bit dope dealer is about to learn respect for the law
Jan 2001
time: 05:14
  Old Post 25-05-2001 06:41
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Lung, I know bird pointed this out already. But why does your avatar have a litttle hairy wang between his legs ?

Lung is offline Lung
King
of my princess Anastasia!
Mar 1999
time: 15:14
  Old Post 25-05-2001 09:19 Visit Lung's homepage!
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Er, i think it's part of the loin-cloth, smart-arse Besides, Firaxis created it - the Lung ain't clever enough

St Jon is offline St Jon
King
BRIGHTON, UK
Aug 2000
time: 05:14
  Old Post 25-05-2001 12:16
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In my opinion there are only three worthwhile Governments in the entire Game, Theocracy>>Communism>>Corp Republic, for either War or Peace. Virtual Democracy looks good but is irrelevent as the Game is already won by the time you get it.

Fascism, as of itself, is a pretty dismal Government with very ordinary Production and a ludicrously low City Limit. The Fascist is an improvement over the Musketeer but is still reliant upon heavy weopon support if it is to overcome entrenched opposition.

One of, the many, deficiencies in CtP is that City Discontent is just too easily handled. It can basically be ignored at the low Difficulty levels and even at Deity does not hit hard enough. Nobody goes to War with 15 Units anyway so where is the huge plus that causes Activision to class Fascism as 'Excellent' in matters military? Even the lower time between Readiness' is largely nulified by the fact that everyone knows that the only reason for switching to Fascism is a desire for conflict and therefore have ample time for adjusting their own War Readiness.

To use 'Fast' as an example of the alleged wonderousness of Fascism is a red herring for War was only commenced after the discovery of Explosives and the production of Artillery Units. The important factor was 'London Exchange' which ensures a substantial Science Rate, regardless of Government, and when coupled with 'Edison's Lab' makes for a, generally, lethal combination.

Vive La Revolution!

Solver is offline Solver
Apolyton Duke Of Something
Latvia, Riga
Sep 2000
time: 07:14
  Old Post 25-05-2001 13:04 Visit Solver<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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OK, TheBirdMan has the point here, for sure.

MOBIUS is offline MOBIUS
King
Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:14
  Old Post 25-05-2001 14:04 Visit MOBIUS's homepage!
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I too think that communism is underrated...

Who cares about falling behind in science when you can loot it from your neighbours to your heart's content!?

If you don't have access to fascism and you're in a bind, communism is great as whatever attack advantage Fascism has is cancelled out by communism's superior production capabilities. Of course you do need Explosives to compete (or you can gamble on stealing that advance with a surprise attack!)

The only thing I despise about it is the pollution aspect - it's shocking! As a naturally environmentally conscious kind of guy, I hate using communism when the pollution begins to kick in and only tend to use it as a last resort when your back is against the wall!

TheBirdMan is offline TheBirdMan
Emperor
A real Master of CTP-PBEM - together with all the others.....
Sep 1999
time: 05:14
  Old Post 25-05-2001 14:16
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To continue using Lung Fast. The moment I am able to build interceptors (and it would be soon) then Senator Maximus will be appointed as chairman

But maybe I will not wait so long....... just a few tanks more then - switch and sorry Stavros, but you were closest !

Keygen is offline Keygen
Emperor
Athens, Hellas
Jan 2000
time: 07:14
  Old Post 25-05-2001 14:48 Visit Keygen's homepage!
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I never liked and never used Communism before Tilemacho kicks all players butts in Deathmatch Modern 1.1.1! He changed early to Communism and in 11 turns he wiped out four players including me and Mobius!
In the last turn he was able to produce one tank each turn!

MOBIUS is offline MOBIUS
King
Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:14
Exclamation  Old Post 26-05-2001 02:35 Visit MOBIUS's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Keygen
I never liked and never used Communism before Tilemacho kicks all players butts in Deathmatch Modern 1.1.1! He changed early to Communism and in 11 turns he wiped out four players including me and Mobius!
In the last turn he was able to produce one tank each turn!


Believe me - I never forgot that lesson!

IIRC we knocked the stuffing out of each other before he cleaned up...

faded glory is offline faded glory
King
This trash talking 2 bit dope dealer is about to learn respect for the law
Jan 2001
time: 05:14
  Old Post 26-05-2001 11:06
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Whos stupid enough to pick monarchy ..

Damn and my avatar takes up too much space...

owel, Im too tired, will deal with in the morning

Keygen is offline Keygen
Emperor
Athens, Hellas
Jan 2000
time: 07:14
  Old Post 27-05-2001 01:23 Visit Keygen's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by MOBIUS


Believe me - I never forgot that lesson!

IIRC we knocked the stuffing out of each other before he cleaned up...


Me either .

Yes, we did but he managed to wipe out Sophix first without much effort .

Too bad he quited CTP after. We could give him a lesson in a rematch

St Jon is offline St Jon
King
BRIGHTON, UK
Aug 2000
time: 05:14
  Old Post 27-05-2001 01:39
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Saddam, that avatar really does portray you as a big upright pointed object!

Perchance a rethought?

faded glory is offline faded glory
King
This trash talking 2 bit dope dealer is about to learn respect for the law
Jan 2001
time: 05:14
  Old Post 27-05-2001 01:54
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Jon you really have some sense of humour dont you

faded glory is offline faded glory
King
This trash talking 2 bit dope dealer is about to learn respect for the law
Jan 2001
time: 05:14
  Old Post 27-05-2001 09:09
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Lol this looks like any other normal row of smilies.....but take another look.





LOL, just looking for a suggestion for mark. some of these are good

blackice is offline blackice
Emperor
Canada where else...
Sep 2000
time: 00:14
  Old Post 27-05-2001 20:52 Visit blackice's homepage!
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Eplosive Idea!

Lung is offline Lung
King
of my princess Anastasia!
Mar 1999
time: 15:14
Cool  Old Post 30-05-2001 09:26 Visit Lung's homepage!
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It occurred to me after Paul's dismal attempt at recapturing Assen in Lung's FAST! pbem how much difference the military strength is between Fascism and Communism.

For all of the current war, the battles have all been one-sided as equal strength stacks always lean heavily toward the Fascist stack. The important thing to consider is that all units get the strength bonus.

I think that it's fair to say that what fascism lacks in production v communism, it makes up for in military strength. The science advantage is purely a bonus, along with the special unit (which performs better than the marine) and the spy advantage Add to that the enormously reduced pollution, and it adds up to a clear advantage for Fascism.

However, the proof is in the pudding, and Jon and Paul have so far been resoundly beaten in the vast majority of battles. Sure, i had a slight tech advantage and was better prepared, but after 20 turns of war, my opponents should be matching me in battles, which are still considerably one-sided.

I guess the real test is how i go against a prepared and battle-hardened BirdBrain Now that i think of it, the Aussies are leading over the Romans in direct battle by about 5-0

Paulno1 is offline Paulno1
Warlord
Auckland New Zealand
Mar 2001
time: 05:14
  Old Post 30-05-2001 17:00
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only 2 worth while governments in the game
theo and you guessed it baby communism.
Commies production advantage helps alot. In commi you can easily build destroyers and marines at 1 turn after electricity and oil refining, even without many mountains. With many mountains or with drug stores or nucleur palnts you can get subs or tanks at 1 run. In facism the is alot harder to do.

If pollution is on or you have many many mountians and you are getting further into modern, then facism becomes useful for the happyness bonuses and less pollution.

In commi you should be able to get tecs no prob at 3 turns. the speed you can build buildings makes it better for tec than theocracy if you think about it. If you get electricty as your third modern tec (not advisable on a reg map really though, unless a land game), then your tec will speed up a lot as well as production.

TheBirdMan is offline TheBirdMan
Emperor
A real Master of CTP-PBEM - together with all the others.....
Sep 1999
time: 05:14
  Old Post 30-05-2001 17:44
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Until now, I have only fought three real battles, all against the germans. 2 won and one lost.

The sea- and landbattles against the aussies were merely designed to delay attacks on my allies and to "lock" some aussies to certain areas.

I still see it this way, if Lung had attacked only 4-6 turns later, Jon had been prepared (artillery and marines) and the war would have been somewhat harder for Lung to fight. The advantages of facism or not.

Regretable Lung, you did attack in the very last moment, where you still had a great advantage using yours modern units against pikemen, musketeers, cavalry and canons.

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