23-05-2001 21:17									#1
	I Can't Believe Civ Doesn't Have This #2: techs without preqs Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I've lost track of how many times a bargaining civ has demanded Monarchy when they don't even have Code Of Laws. Or I have stolen (or traded or been gifted) a tech I don't have the listed prerequisites for. No matter what advantages it may give me, it still irritates me.

This is one of those things which just doesn't make sense. I mean, how can a civ make sense of the automobile tech when they don't understand combustion?. In the extreme cases, players have reported an enemy civ stealing space travel and building structurals while still running around with elephants and caravels.

I propose that a rule be made that a tech Cannot be aquired without first having the prerequisite. this is one thing that knocks my suspension of disbelief aside all the time.

Comments?

Oh, and sorry Korn for stealing your title. it was just so appropriate.

	23-05-2001 21:25									#2
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I think that you should need one of the prerequires, or half of them if there are more then two required to get a tech.

	23-05-2001 21:35									#3
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Steeling techs is important! Especially advanced ones. However the rule should be you can't research off of the tech you stole untill you research/steel its prerequisets.

	24-05-2001 02:17									#4
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I agree with you Father Beast !

However, the stealer should "get" the advance, but would only be able to *use* it after they get the prequisites. IMHO

	24-05-2001 03:28									#5
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I'm of the view that you shouldn't be able to steal techs. You should be able to steal aiding knowledge. A type of backward engineering.

If you steal the plans for an atomic bomb it does not mean you instantly can understand how to make another one, nut it sure would help you in your own research.

If you steal a tech you get (say) a 10% reduction in total cost to you when you choose to research it. If you are trading a tech make it (say) 50%. After all if you are being supplied information willingly you are more easily going to assimilate the technology.

These figures could also be modified if you have the prerequisites. For example if you have "Rocketry" and trade for "Space Flight" the reduction in cost could be 80 bulbs whilst if you are only as far as "Theory of Gravity" you make it 10 bulbs. That way traders of technology will more likely opt for the less distant technologies in order to reap greater benefits from trading.

	24-05-2001 09:49									#6
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i believe that the stealing of techs should work simular to imperialism 2. if you have a spy in the civ it reduces the turns it takes to acquire that tech. so if you had a spy in london and the english had a republic and you were researching you would get maybe 10% reduction in that tech. if you have multipul spys in several nations you would get combined reduction.

also i believe other factors should reduce. each trade route with a civ that had the tech maybe a reduction of 2%. also an alliance would give a reduction of 10% peace treaty of 5% and every nation you are not at war with a 3% reduction. this would demonstrate the passing of techs, through merchants and civilians traveling between your civs.

	24-05-2001 11:04									#7
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Cannot agree more!

There are countless times when AI steal my plastic or superconductor(they always pick the juciy ones) without even flight. At least, tune down the power of stealing tech to make it more sensible.

	24-05-2001 15:44									#8
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Totally agree Father Beast, e g it is so annoying when you have reaserched for years to finally get the armor unit, and then the turn after one of the other civs steals the last tech from you and soon everyone has it.

If nothing else, there should at least not be possible to steal from an age you haven't reached yet.

	24-05-2001 15:50									#9
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Yeah, perhaps it would be good where exchanging techs without prerequisities doesn't give you the tech but gives you a sizeable reduction in the cost to represent having knowledge of what the tech is all about and what is being aimed for. maybe stealing or exchanging tech may give you 50% off that tech or something. It may help to make things a bit harder as well, but in a good way. But it would require a model to remember this information when performing the research...

	24-05-2001 18:05									#10
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OK, I've read, and I still don't think it should be possible to aquire a tech in any fashion without its preq. if a civ wants to steal lots of preqs on the way to their stealing space flight, that's fine. but to be able to bypass it is absurd

On the side of reducing beaker counts, it may make some sense, but a lot of these suggestions would complicate the game unneccesarily. I vote for a simple ban on aquiring any techs without having the listed prerequisites.

I can't research them out of order, why should I be able to get them in other ways out of order?

we now have the technology of automobile , which means we can build battleships, but if the engine breaks down, we don't know how to fix it since we don't have combustion . Ridiculous.

the point is, you can't even understand a tech you don't have the preqs for, so should be unable to aquire it.

I'm not sure I like the idea of exchanging techs, but not getting the techs. if the civ I'm exchanging with has the tech, they have the preq, and I should just exchange for that and get me a step closer to what I want.

Civilization has a number of techs that don't do anthing in particular, but are important stepping stones to higher techs.Like physics. want to tell me you can understand steam engine tech without that?

enough of my ranting for the moment. I'll be back later

	24-05-2001 18:49									#11
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quote: Originally posted by JMarks Steeling techs is important! Especially advanced ones. However the rule should be you can't research off of the tech you stole untill you research/steel its prerequisets.

quote: Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth If nothing else, there should at least not be possible to steal from an age you haven't reached yet.

I'd prefer to keep tech stealing as is, but with only these two above mentioned tweaks. It's simple, it makes sense and it keeps the core-gameplay of Civ. Most important is the inability to research off of stolen techs without the prereqs.

	24-05-2001 19:10									#12
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If you can't steal advanced techs you'd have to work out a good way of supplying mercenaries and munitions to other countries. Anyone can get Ak-47s these days even if they can barely subsistence farm.

	24-05-2001 19:20									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold If you can't steal advanced techs you'd have to work out a good way of supplying mercenaries and munitions to other countries. Anyone can get Ak-47s these days even if they can barely subsistence farm.

Absolutely, and the peasants who can't read but have AK-47s aren't building fighter jets either. Researching off of stolen techs shouldn't be allowed, though tech theft is very important to the game and history (the US got into the Industrial Revolution through stolen factory plans).

	24-05-2001 22:39									#14
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You definitly should not be able to procure techs that you do not have the pre-reqs for. Some people have said that giving guns to cultures with muskets is allowed, and shoudl be allowed... the problem is, you are modeling arms sales, which is represented in Civ by giving military units, not technology. If you want to give those peasants some AKs, you would offer them a few marines/machinegunner units, not give them the tech for it.

	26-05-2001 02:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 You definitly should not be able to procure techs that you do not have the pre-reqs for. Some people have said that giving guns to cultures with muskets is allowed, and shoudl be allowed... the problem is, you are modeling arms sales, which is represented in Civ by giving military units, not technology. If you want to give those peasants some AKs, you would offer them a few marines/machinegunner units, not give them the tech for it.

Absolutely, cyclotron.
In fact, I read once that the important tech that eliminated the barbarian ability was gunpowder. All you history buffs may debate this no end. what it said was that muskets require a civilization to reload them, whereas previously maasive amounts of swords/bows could simply be stolen by barbs and used without any tech support. not so with muskets and cannons.

in such case, you could sell arms (or in the civ context, gift units) to civs that cannot build anything like what you have, and they still wouldn't automatically have the tech to build them themselves.

	28-05-2001 06:43									#16
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I'm split on how this should work because it is true that high tech weapons need adequate support to continue functioning but you only have to look at all the tin pot dictators around the world that have a few jet fighters, some helicopters and at least on tank brigade to realise that it is not that simple. 'Gift' units model the sort of deliberate lend-lease policies of big countries, not shady arms deals where gun runners break trade embargoes for profit. If third world terrorist organisations and revolutionaries can keep themselves supplied without official backing from any country then unit gifts are not enough. All they need to know is how to grow certain illegal but lucrative crops or hold businessmen hostage for ransom.

That you can build the units you have aquired tech for seems fair to me. Unless you have the prior techs to improve your economy like banks and factories etc your production is still going to be woefully low provided the AI has to follow the rules. If it just cheats and makes up which buildings it has and how easily it can produce units then the game has bigger problems than whether tech stealing works or not.

	28-05-2001 07:03									#17
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There may be lots of theoretical support for unlimited tech steal, but when it comes down to gameplay, steal tech with prerequisites becomes more logical.

The actual problem is not AI stealing armor or gunpowder, but space flight, plastic and superconductor without knowing even combustion! There are times when AI chunking out SS structurals when their active defense units are musketeers only.

	30-05-2001 07:25									#18
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I just had an incident in a game today!

I was at war with the romans, but wasn't paying much attention to them because I was concentrating on my war with the carthaginians.
A roman diplomat comes up to my city and steals Fusion Power .
Now aside from what possible use could they have for that tech, I checked with my spies, and found they were just still researching Mettalurgy . after a handful of turns ( and a LOT of trading techs with the zulus) they discovered atomic theory.

all this seems a long way from fusion power, but they just waltzed in and took it.

	30-05-2001 18:58									#19
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All the more reason to turn espionage from a unit based system to a spy screen with funding levels and selectable objectives like MOO, BotF etc. The whole idea you can nick any one (but only one) science from any city always was completely ludicrous. The only reason to keep it would be one of tradition.

	31-05-2001 03:44									#20
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quote: Originally posted by me_irate i believe that the stealing of techs should work simular to imperialism 2. if you have a spy in the civ it reduces the turns it takes to acquire that tech. so if you had a spy in london and the english had a republic and you were researching you would get maybe 10% reduction in that tech. if you have multipul spys in several nations you would get combined reduction. also i believe other factors should reduce. each trade route with a civ that had the tech maybe a reduction of 2%. also an alliance would give a reduction of 10% peace treaty of 5% and every nation you are not at war with a 3% reduction. this would demonstrate the passing of techs, through merchants and civilians traveling between your civs.

This is great!

Father Beast, I agree with your topic, but not how it should be fixed. I agree with jMarks

	31-05-2001 03:46									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold All the more reason to turn espionage from a unit based system to a spy screen with funding levels and selectable objectives like MOO, BotF etc. The whole idea you can nick any one (but only one) science from any city always was complet++++ludicrous. The only reason to keep it would be one of tradition.

Ahh yes, so many things to fix, so little time...
too bad were only thinking of them now, when the games in ****ing BETA stage

	31-05-2001 07:01									#22
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Let's take a look at stealing tech or acquire tech from a friend. In WWII the Russian stole and acquired new tech in two ways.
The T-34 tank derived by way of the BT Cruiser from the American Christie T-3 of 1931. (Soviet War Machine) A Hugh leap for them.
The same with Fighter. We gave them the P-40, P-39, and the P-63. Another leap.
Also when we the U.S. was flying B-29 over Japan, several had to land in China and Russia. Since the Commie control northern China and Russia, all plane where turn over to Russia. Three year later at the May day parade (1948) the Russian few a whole squadron of what our spies though where B-29s over Moscow and later after calling Washington they found out we did not loose that many airplanes, so the Russian where able to rebuild and construct new plane in just three year. Some experts of the time felt the Russian gain 20 to 30 years in bomber production.
It the same with Jet Aircraft. The new British Gov. P.M. of 1948 gave them the Roll Royce Jet Engine to prove what a nice guy he was and two years later they had the MIG-15. Another giant leap.
And then our spies gave them the Atomic Sec. and we know what happen in a very short time.
Even the German got into the act when they capture a T-34. They took a very good look and then build the Panther V.
Yes when you acquired new tech. it only takes a while before you understand and then used it.
BTW before someone said I don't know was I'm talking about, there are about 200 books to my left about 6 feet away that I,M using for ref.

	31-05-2001 07:12									#23
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Yeah, joseph, those things happened, but the tech was within their reach, they just hadn't got it yet.

It's not the same as if they examined and rebuilt a bunch of F15s from a single model, when all they had was biplanes before.

the techs in civ tend to be somewhat more encompassing than those examples, Joseph. the difference between the german panther V, and their previous tank wouldn't even be listed as a tech in a civ game.

	31-05-2001 07:25									#24
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Dainbramaged, Irate, I think this model of trade or espionage reducing the beakers neccesary for research is a great one!
Unfortunately, it probably won't be directly implemented except in the fashion of civ2 (beaker bonus as well as gold for trade routes), if that.
I always thought trade between civs should lead to some leakage of knowledge, and that's always good for business, if not politics.

Whoever said the one tech per city rule is absurd is right. has nothing to do with the main subject, though.

Changing the model around to improve research costs for gifting, trading or stealing would be useful, but probably won't happen at this point unless it's already in.
I think the simple barring of techs without preqs is simple enough it could be put in at this point, at least as a startup option.
I Hope, I Hope, I Hope......

	31-05-2001 13:01									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold All the more reason to turn espionage from a unit based system to a spy screen with funding levels and selectable objectives like MOO, BotF etc. The whole idea you can nick any one (but only one) science from any city always was completely ludicrous. The only reason to keep it would be one of tradition.

Like almost anything you can think of, this was suggested a long time ago. You can find it in the archives, I think

	31-05-2001 13:06									#26
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 The T-34 tank derived by way of the BT Cruiser from the American Christie T-3 of 1931. (Soviet War Machine) A Hugh leap for them.

Right.

If the US had tanks as good as the T-34 back then, I might believe you. But the fact that the US tanks sucked during WW II until the M-26 Pershing came along, when the war in Europe was almost over.

	31-05-2001 15:36									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Like almost anything you can think of, this was suggested a long time ago. You can find it in the archives, I think

I know that Like most Apolytoners I don't have time to read all the posts that get put on daily let alone search the archive for all previous references. It is not even the first time I have mentioned this point and I was certainly not the first to do so. It was relevant to this debate so I mentioned it again. I also support the Imperialism model which gives you solid bonuses for having spies in any countries which already know the tech you are currently trying to research. Conversely I detest the EU model which cripplingly penalises the leader the further they get from the pack.

All of these concepts are worth repeating for the benefit of any passing Firaxians just in case they are currently dissatisfied with the betatesting of their latest espionage tech-steal model and are considering changing it. I haven't seen anything yet to confirm for definite that it remains the same but in the absence of information we have to assume the Civ I/II approach is being used.

	31-05-2001 15:40									#28
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Um, no. I think the premise of the non-requirements is realistic, and it helps to keep any one nation from getting a tech advantage that is unimaginable.

Look at our world today! How many third world nations that just a few decades ago were, ahem, riding on elephants, but today have nuclear capability, or the automobile? Technology has a way of trickling down. Nations that actually brought us the automobile, or space flight, or the toaster, spent countless amounts of resources to develope these technologies over many years, but other peoples can benefit from the knowledge very simply, and very quickly.

It is much more difficult to create a concept than it is to copy one.

	31-05-2001 21:17									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Right. If the US had tanks as good as the T-34 back then, I might believe you. But the fact that the US tanks sucked during WW II until the M-26 Pershing came along, when the war in Europe was almost over.

That quote was taken right out of the book Soviet War Machine.
During the 20s and 30s our Army for the most part did not realized the need for a top rated tank (The Armour Approve Board suck big time).
For what ever reason Mr. Christie and the Army did not get along, so they the Army rejected his proposal and he was allow the go to the Russian. Even George Patton and the Armour Board where at odd with each other from time to time. Something to think about is during the 20s and 30s most of the top Generals where either Cavalry or Infantry in the 1800 and had just fought a trench war in WW I with Infantry.
The Navy was not mush better at this time either.

	31-05-2001 21:45									#30
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I agree with FB's original post where he said you should have to steal the pre-requisite techs before you have an option to steal the more advanced techs. This solution is simple and it's probably easy to implement; besides in the real world a Civ with muskets isn't capable of advanced spaceflight.