18-05-2000 09:14									#31
	Increase Your PM Length

Xin Yu,

Hi. I tried your moves on the 4-whale OCC comparison game. I used the cheat menu to erase all my starting techs. I also moved the 2 settlers on top of the city location. Here is my partial log, with the “TLS” rate being an abbreviation for Tax-Luxury-Science:

4000bc (turn 1): founded Rome. Also built 2nd settler into city; shifted TLS rate to 0.4.6; building warrior
3950bc (turn 2): researching pottery; TLS to 4.0.6
3900bc (turn 3): warrior built; building warrior. TLS to 6.0.4
3850bc (turn 4): TLS remains at 6.0.4; nothing else significant happened this turn
3800bc (turn 5): Pottery discovered; warrior built. Building granary. TLS to 4.0.6 again. Researching CB
3750bc (turn 6): warrior exploring; found a hut, but will save it for later…
3600bc (turn 9): Discovered Ceremonial Burial; researching Alphabet
3500bc (turn11): Switched to Barracks; paid for rest of barracks, switched back to building a granary
3300bc (turn 15): granary built; building warrior. Alphabet discovered, researching bronze working
3250bc (turn 16): 2nd warrior moves back into city.
3200bc (turn 17): pop=3; warrior built, building Hanging Gardens
2950bc (turn 22): Bronze Working discovered; researching Code of Laws
2900bc (turn 23): Switched from Hanging Gardens to Colossus
2700bc (turn 27): pop=4
2550bc (turn 30): Code of Laws discovered; researching Monarchy.
2100bc (turn 39): Monarchy discovered; REVOLT; researching Currency; TLS to 2.2.6 to prepare for a growth in population next turn; I also switched one of my workers from working a whale to working a forest so that when I go to pop 5, the new worker will default to working a whale … normally, if all 4 whales are being worked, the new worker would work a grassland (no shield). This way, I get an extra shield or two this turn, and it actually helps me get the Colossus one turn faster. Several Loads and Saves to work this out.
2050bc (turn 40): Pop=5; Monarchy established; TLS to 1.2.7 with 1 scientist Sold Granary
2000bc (turn 41): Colossus built; building temple. The Colossus allows me to work all 5 workers without a temple at a 10% Luxury rate. Since I can produce 10 shields now, with 4 whales and the 5th citizen working on a unroaded, unirrigated plains square, it may be more wise to build a settler here than a temple, because I can rush-buy a good portion with my 129 gold

My log is a little different from your path. I got techs a little sooner and the 4th and 5th population increases a little later. I’m not sure why this happened, but this was a very interesting variant to what (I believe) most OCC guys do at the beginning of the game. I think any OCC player would agree that as long as you build the Colossus and establish a Monarchy before 2000bc, then you’ve had a pretty successful opening. In addition, your population is size 5, with your food box over half-full for the next increase.

The major trade-offs to this are that, of course, the land is unimproved. Another drawback is the lack of exploring and lack of AI contact this series of moves could often lead to. Basically, your exploring consists of moving a warrior out 5 squares, and then bringing him back before the city goes to Population 3. I ran into two huts, but I left them as they were because I didn’t want to mess up the series of moves you offered. If I would have found a tech in my path, of course, that’s good, but something like Warrior Code would have slowed me down just a tad, delaying Monarch establishment just a little bit. If I would have found a unit under the Hut, this could have really slowed things down, because I would have a size 2 city supporting 3 units. That would have probably made the granary come a little later.

All in all, I kind of like it though. If I’m on an island in a Moby-Dick haven (ala OCC#5), I’m going to try it.

	18-05-2000 09:39									#32
	Put an end to popups!

vik: Thanks for trying it out and posting here. My post was just out of my brain since I could not play the game in office. I agree that a temple is not necessary, better use the money for settler or marketplace. However with the temple your warriors can go out to explore.

After the second warrior comes back to the city, the next turn he can go out for another 10 turns as well (the third warrior is about to be built), giving you a chance to explore another direction, or to pick up the huts.

As for the 'lack of contact with other civ' part, do you think it can be improved without rely on luck from huts?

I'm curious about the approach of not building a granary. Could you try it as well?

Edit: actually your 2nd warrior does not need to come back to city until turn 26. The third warrior built in city was right on time for the 3rd citizen. Perfect.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited May 17, 2000).]

	18-05-2000 02:50									#33
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I think it's important to point out that a 4 whale city site puts the add settler to city right away strategy in its best light. You can be at pop 4 without any need for settler improvements.

Both methods of play achieve similar results in the early game - with more non whale specials the "traditional" opening would only get better.

	18-05-2000 08:16									#34
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Xin: Nice analysis. I apologize, but I cannot help but to be slightly biased towards Paul's prescription for opening an OCC game. Any bias is not intentional, but is probably there nonetheless.

Lately, this thread has reminded me of chess discussions I had as a student . . . talking about openings, variants, lines of play, etc. If you know a lot about the history of chess opening theories, you might akin this discussion to what Nimzovich and Reti might have gone through to gain validity for the hypermodern openings (back in the '20s).

uh, anyways...

yes, i was lucky to get the straight path to monarchy--that doesn't happen a whole lot. I like how you brought up the trade-off between gold (30 more) and exploring. I guess whether you met an AI civ or not would determine if you bumped your luxury rate up to keep your warrior out exploring.

No surprise, luck plays a pretty big role in determining how early you meet AIs, tech path, etc. And of course, as two of our top OCC players have pointed out, this line may not work without 4 whales. Maybe with 3 whales and a rivered grass-shield square somewhere it would work -- just a little slower on the techs and colossus after pop4.

I'm going to shut-up about this for awhile because I would like to hear (er, read) some more analysis on it. I commend you, Xin.

	19-05-2000 14:29									#35
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks guys - a most erudite thread - I shall go and ponder ...


____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited May 19, 2000).]