15-05-2000 18:23									#1
	My first OCC game Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Played my first OCC game yesterday. I used Bird's comparison game from Paul's site. I didn't do too well -- the Egyptians landed on AC before I even had space flight (and after they had conquered the whole world except me).

I had two particular problems. First, I was very late getting to Monarchy because the tech path didn't allow it. I can't recall the year, but it was by far the latest I've ever seen.

Second, and more important, I was relentlessly harassed by the Persians. They attacked me incessantly in the early years. I gave them every tech I had, but still they attacked. Either they just sneak-attacked, or they demanded tribute which I didn't pay (because I needed the money for rush-buying) and they declared war. Dealing with the fighting slowed down my progress enough so that I lost Copernicus. Finally, about during the gunpowder era, they left me alone. However in the later game -- about 1900AD -- they built a city just outside my city radius and resumed the harassment. They had troops roaming my city squares, and eventually they attacked with tanks. I held them off, but it was a big delay -- I had to use too many resources for military units. They also killed two of my engineers.

Is this normal for OCC? I didn't expect these kinds of sustained attacks until after I launched a spaceship. I generally don't mind a good battle, but it was really aggravating to not be able to field an army to wipe them out.

One other question: I didn't see anything in the rules about bribing engineers. I sent a spy around and ended up finding three relatively cheap NONE engineers. That helped a lot, until the Persians killed two of them. Is that "legal"?

	15-05-2000 18:43									#2
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Campo,
You sound well stressed out by all that fighting!!! I've never had that much hassle from the other civs in an OCC game! in occ6 they were quite aggressive, but not that bad!!! Have any of you other guys played birds comparison game??

And with your techs you really need to streamline what you research!!!! the important ones are bronze working, monarchy and Trade!!! These are the must haves - ingnore everything else, so you can trade it or until you have to have it!!!

Make sure you read Pauls occ rules, he goes through what you need to research and build for each epoch!!! http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/occ.htm


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Oldman,

"There are not more than 5 musical notes..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 primary colours..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 cardinal tatses..." - Sun Tzu

and we build an Academy for this guy...


Edited: those bloody smilies!!
[This message has been edited by Oldman (edited May 15, 2000).]

	15-05-2000 18:49									#3
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Nothing illegal about bribing units, so go for it. Accepted theory goes that the money spent on bribing NONE units could be better used to rush buy Wonders, but there are always exceptions.

Constant war with an AI is pretty uncommon in OCC. If you are able to find AIs early enough in the game (before they find each other and start wars amongst themselves), you can generally form an alliance with them (just give them tech, and keep on giving). I can often form an alliance with all but 1 or 2 of the AIs, and the one or two that do not ally with me are too far away to harass me.

Good luck in future OCC games. Try the fortnight competitions - there's no "expiry" date on them, and anyone can join in on the fun

edit: Oldman raises a point that should be clarified with OCC games. If you play a scenario (such as the fortnight games), the tech tree is completely available - as long as you have the prerequisites, you can research it.

In a regular non-scenario game (such as birds saved game), the choice of techs to research is limited. After researching alphabet, ceremonial burial and code of laws, you might be offered a list of techs that consists of: Pottery and Warrior Code. Pretty annoying, but thats the way it goes.

We are generally able to finish a scenario at a much earlier date than a comparable regular saved game (early 1800s landings aren't too hard on some scenarios, but only Paul can consistently get early 1800s landing in regular games).
[This message has been edited by Tom DeMille (edited May 15, 2000).]

	15-05-2000 19:04									#4
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Campo, which version of Civ2 do you have? If you have the multiplayer version that could explain your problems. The AI in MP is much more aggressive than in the original single player version. I don't have the MP version, but some people here play OCC with the MP version. Maybe they can tell you more about how they deal with the aggressive AI.

	15-05-2000 19:51									#5
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I've had the same problems when playing an OCC in MGE. I can usually form an alliance with each civ I encounter on the turn I encounter them, but then our relationship rapidly deteriorates. It seems that the baseline relationship is uncooperative, unless you've given them something that turn. Consequently, the other civs are always harassing you and will usually cancel alliances the next time they come in contact with you. This makes it really hard to trade techs (because they constantly demand all your techs, so you have to go up two on the computer before you can trade one) and pretty much impossible to get money. Plus the added pain of fending off technologically and numerically superior attacks.

Because of the hostile AI, I have yet to win an OCC game on either one of the 'approved' scenarios or a randomly generated map (although I did come close one time- only losing to the dratted Chinese by ten turns or so). When I really want to play an OCC game, I'll usually generate a random map and then create a city grid sized island linked to the mainland by a single square. Then I put a mountain on that square, so I can stick a defensive unit on it early in the game and prevent anyone from messing with my city squares. That usually lets me hold out long enough to gain a technological edge, and then it's all over.

	16-05-2000 09:09									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Oldman:
And with your techs you really need to streamline what you research!

The problem was that I wasn't offered first Ceremonial Burial and then Monarchy as research choices. I did Alphabet right away, then Code of Laws. Then Ceremonial Burial wasn't a choice -- I had to do pottery, masonry, and I think one other. Then I got Ceremonial, but after that it was 3 or 4 other techs researched before Monarchy as a choice. I've never had to wait that long.

Make sure you read Pauls occ rules

Thanks, I did. I wouldn't have had any clue otherwise.

Tom:
Nothing illegal about bribing units, so go for it. Accepted theory goes that the money spent on bribing NONE units could be better used to rush buy Wonders, but there are always exceptions.

I was able to bribe three Greek engineers for 320 gold each, because the Greek treasury was pretty low. I thought that was a good enough deal to warrant doing. That didn't happen until I had built one engineer of my own, which I disbanded after I had the three NONEs.

Paul:
Campo, which version of Civ2 do you have?

Actually I have them both. I originally got MGE but got frustrated with the AI attitude, so I picked up a used 2.42. That's what I played this game with, which made the Persian aggressiveness all the more surprising.

Lame Duck, you might want to look for 2.42. It really does make a difference. (Well it always has before anyway.)

Thanks all.

	16-05-2000 09:12									#7
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Yeah, tom corrected me anyway!!! in a scenario you can research whatever is available!!!!! but in a standard Sp game, it's a bit more tempramental!?!?!?

Can some someone have a look at the last post on the occ8 thread, i'm having a confusing time with my occ game that i can't be bothered to cut and paste cause my connection is sooooo slow!!!

	16-05-2000 09:13									#8
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BTW, it was mostly the Persians who came after me. The Greeks harrassed me a few times too, but not that bad.

The other civs were all quite agreeable. By the end the Egyptians could have wiped me out easily, with or without nuclear. (They had it and I didn't.) They hovered all around but let me survive.

	15-05-2000 22:21									#9
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Some time back, there was a thread which looked at the fastest way to research to monarchy. The best theory(which was not proven) is that you can't research two consecutive techs in the same category. Monarchy, code of laws, and ceremonial burial are in the social category, and alphabet is in the academic category.
When given a choice, I start with ceremonial-burial instead of alphabet. This gives me the ability to build a temple which I might need, and gets one of the social techs out of the way. I don't remember not getting the option to research alphabet(acaademic) next.

	16-05-2000 16:15									#10
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A tip I picked up from Ming on another thread - SG2 & I tried it out Sunday evening with some success (I don't know how well if at all it works in MGE)...
The AI loves trading maps - having got the AIs worshipful by the usual technique of dumping encartas of techs on their doorstep swap maps EVERY turn - they stay worshipful!


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	16-05-2000 17:00									#11
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Ouch, that sounds boring.

	16-05-2000 17:04									#12
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I went through the saves of my OCC game last night to get more detail on the research path. I started researching Alphabet. Ceremonial Burial came up about 2000BC. Code of Laws at 1000BC. Monarchy did not appear as a choice until 200AD. I had 15 techs by then, most from research but a few from huts. I usually have at most half that number before Monarchy. I completed Monarchy in 500AD, the latest I've ever reached it. I don't understand why it didn't appear as a research option until so late.

A question -- when I check with the Science Advisor for the list of my techs, most are in yellow but a couple show up in white. What does that mean?

	16-05-2000 17:09									#13
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I believe these are the ones that you were the first to obtain/research, but I must admit to being uncertain.


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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	16-05-2000 20:13									#14
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It might not always be the idea option, but I try to wait to pop huts until after I have Monarchy. I have played OCC in MGE quite a few times and it is fractionally harder, because tribute isn't as easy, but it helps if you:

1) give a lot of techs away
2) trade maps, espec with your nearest ally
3) look weak - don't build a lot of units
4) spend all of your money before you talk to any AI. "gosh, I'd love to give you money, but I just rush built Copernicus' Observatory - sorry!"
5) get allies early and make sure you keep the ones close by even if it means declaring war on a civ farther away - in fact this is a good way to keep them happy.
6) I research in this order - Alpha, Bruial, Code, Bronze, Monarchy. If I don't pop huts in MGE I have always gotten Monarchy 5th. geofelt's comment about consecutive techs is why I split Alpha, Code, and Monarchy - I am sure there are other patterns that work, but I am scared to change now that I found one that works.

	16-05-2000 20:32									#15
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Thanks my good friend, Sten. Like Campo, I will soon try my first OCC game (in MGE, no less) and your list is very helpful.

	16-05-2000 22:10									#17
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I tried OCC once without going very far. After comparing with Paul's records I felt that my strategy was bad. However I did not notice that he played on a small map! Later I was onto something else and have forgotten about OCC for a long time.

My instinct is that, since your city has 3 specials at least, you should add the second settler to the city after building your first warrior. Your first tech should be pottery, and your first city improvement granary. After granary it will be two more warriors then the Hanging Garden (Switch to Collosus later). Tech path should lead to Monarchy, with Bronze (must finish before Hanging Garden is done), writing, mapmaking, seafaring, currency, trade, masonry, construction as alternatives when you cannot choose the techs lead to Monarchy. Build a settler back after reaching size 5.

	16-05-2000 22:59									#18
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Xin - have you checked out Paul's web site? His strat is very much WLT_D based, and doesn't require HG to get happy.

	16-05-2000 23:18									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

I am surprised that Xin Yu have not mastered OCC. A question though, what does 'add the second settler' and 'build a settler back' mean?

	16-05-2000 23:32									#20
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Actuallly he may not mean build HG, just start on it and switch to Col.

Add settler is just taking your second settler and having him join your city to make it a size two, then build one from scratch around size five.

	16-05-2000 23:34									#21
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Sten, I think Xin Yu meant that he would start HG and then switch to Colossus when he gets Bronze Working.

Steve, "add the second settler" means that he will add the settler to the city to increase population. He will then later build a new settler. The major disadvantage to this is that your new settler will not be a NONE.

[Edit: Sten beat me to it]
[This message has been edited by Paul (edited May 16, 2000).]

	16-05-2000 23:52									#22
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There's a first time for everything.

I wonder if I can get my title changed to "quicker than Paul"

Like anyone would believe me

	17-05-2000 00:18									#24
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Paul: Yes that is a disadvantage, but the initial bonus is pretty big with one more worker on a special. Unless you have a wheet, it suppose to take 10 turns for a city to grow from size 1 to size 2 (irrigation won't help under despotism). Adding the second settler to the city will save you 10 turns at the beginning. I believe under certain situation it can be an option.

	17-05-2000 01:09									#25
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there have been several fortnight OCCs where "joining city" was a good plan.Most of the time you want that settler to improve the land so you can celebrate starting at size 3 or 4.

I did a little hut test and I found you were approx 30- 40% more likely to get a non settler if you didn't allready have one.So, joining city early and trying to get a wandering nomad might be good idea.

Look back at that island OCC and see how many wandering nomads are found after the first non settler is gone.I'd say you have a very good chance of finding one fairly early.

	17-05-2000 01:32									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

Personally, I would keep the "NONE" settler under most circumstances, but the above several posts have made some good counter-arguements.

The part I disagree about more in Xin's suggestion is building a granary before building a wonder.

If you do this, you lose out on a whopping 1 (one) gold per turn while you build the colossus. That will add up to enough money to finish rush-buying your temple or library or marketplace. In addition, the merits of owning a granary in OCC are rather dubious, because you only grow your city via We Luv days, and ideally you only do it maybe 3 or 4 times a game.

Once you reach size 4 or 5, with your young republic working irrigated grassland squares, growth due to food-stocking comes pretty quickly even without a granary.

In any event, it Xin's plan sounds interesting enough for me to give it a try.

EDIT: I also realized that you would lose out on quite a few trade arrows when building the granary first. This is probably obvious, but another potential drawback is that, assuming you have no units from huts, building that 2nd settler into the city will lead to instant disorder until that first warrior is built. There is a good chance you will go to a size-3 population before the granary is built, which will lead to more disorder unless you cut back on your science and raise the luxury rate to compensate.
[This message has been edited by vik (edited May 16, 2000).]

	17-05-2000 04:31									#27
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vik: let's suppose you play a 4-whale OCC game, and the first advance needs 10 bulbs.
The first turn you set science 60% and luxury 40% to keep the city from revolt.
The second turn put science 60% and tax 40% since your warrior will be ready (your shield production is 5).
The third and fourth turn put science 40% and tax 60%, and keep on building warrior. On the fourth turn your first warrior goes out of the city to explorer.
You should get pottery now.
On fifth turn start building granary, set science to 60% and tax to 40% again. Turn 11, buy a barracks on the way when you have 30 shields and 20 bucks then switch back to granary.
Turn 11, another tech (18 bulbs).
Turn 15, granary ready, just on time to save you half of food box.
Turn 16 the first warrior should be back to city. City grow to size 3 and produce 7 shields and 7 trade icons. Build another warrior.
Turn 18, start building HG.
Turn 21, the third tech (27 bulbs).
Turn 26, city size 4, produce 9 shield and 9 trade. 56 shield towards HG.
Turn 30, the 4th tech (36 bulbs).
Turn 38, city size 5, hire one scientist (total science output 8). City stop growing. Sell granary.
Turn 39, 5th tech (45 bulbs).
Turn 43 Collosus ready. Start building temple. Buy temple. Put the scientist back to work. City start growing again. Start building settler.

The above is based on the situation without any luck from huts.

	17-05-2000 13:11									#28
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This would probably work well in a situation with four whales and lots of water where you don't need as much work from your settler. But how would this work out in a situation where you have mostly land?

	18-05-2000 01:48									#29
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Xin,

Okay, here's how I would have played the same thing, where I save the NONE settler to improve the land. Keep in mind that I am nothing more than average at OCC. It's a pretty interesting comparison, with advantages and disadvantages to both ways. I hope everyone will chime in on anything that stands out to them.

4000bc (turn 1): Rome founded; TLS at 4.0.6; since I have four whales, settler moves to clear jumgle
3950bc (turn 2): researching bronze working
3800bc (turn 5): warrior built; he explores; building warrior
3750bc (turn 6): discovered Bronze working; researching alphabet; leaving all huts alone
3600bc (turn 9): 2nd warrior built; building 3rd
3500bc (turn11): alphabet discovered; researching ceremonial burial
3450bc (turn12): pop=2
3400bc (turn13): 3rd warrior built; building colossus
3250bc (turn16): settler cleared jungle; will road and irrigate next
3200bc (turn17): ceremonial burial discovered; researching code of laws
3000bc (turn21): that warrior dispatched on turn 5 happened to find the greeks. I didn’t trade knowledge or ask for gifts; I just made peace to keep the integrity of this experiment in tact
2800bc (turn25): discovered code of laws; researching monarchy
2700bc (turn27): pop=3
2350bc (turn34): monarchy discovered; REVOLT; researching writing. I could have picked currency, but writing allows the diplomat which is good for incremental rush-buying of units (that 30 gold unit).
2250bc (turn36): Monarchy established; altered TLS to 3.0.7
2000bc (turn41): moved warrior back into city, even though it will be about 6 more turns before pop4
1900bc (turn43): discovered writing, researching literacy
1700bc (turn47): pop=4; colossus built.

My treasury is at 99 gold (surprisingly less than on Xin’s line of play), and in either one or two more turns I will discover literacy (going for early republic). I still have my NONE settler, and so far he has laid four roads and irrigated four squares, not to mention clearing a jungle. My warrior, eligible to explore from 3800-1700bc, has uncovered a lot of ground. At 1750bc, I could have chosen to bump the luxuries up to 10% and let the warrior keep on exploring, but I brought him back to the city anyways. I also cheat-deleted a barbarian archer for fairness in comparison with my first log.

Despite not getting the colossus until 6 turns later, I feel better prepared to jump into Republic and WLTxD. I have contacted another civ, and hopefully they can help me out with either currency, mysticism, or a pre-req for construction. As it turned out, in this case the Greeks did have mysticism, so I’m on the inside track to Philosophy. I would gamble that they would discover masonry or currency before I discover republic. If republic was not a researchable option after literacy, of course I would go with either currency or philosophy.

As far as Xin’s line of play, I also noticed (after the fact) that the exploring warrior could go twice as far without returning, but I didn’t feel like editing it, then. But you’re right, it’s bang-bang right on time with that 3rd warrior being built right as the population goes up. So there is a much better chance of that warrior making contact with the AI if he can move 10 squares instead of just 5.

Lots of things to compare here, and I’m sure other people would play it different. I’ll let some more astute people comment more on it. To play, I used the 4-whale comparison game from Paul’s homepage, deleted all of the Romans’ starting technologies, and moved both the settlers one square to the SouthWest so that they are exactly on the ideal city location.

	18-05-2000 02:40									#30
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vik: you are lucky to get 4 straight techs to Monarchy.

My plan gains in tech (about one advance), money (30 gold more), and population (reaching size 5 earlier. After building a settler the pop will return to 5 soon). It loses in exploring (about 15 turns) and terrain improving.
I can adjust my luxury rate to keep the warrior out exploring. This will cost about 30 golds (2 gold to luxury each turn). In this sense my money gain canceled with exploring loss.
Terrain improving only matters after size 5 and Monarchy. It will be more important after republic and construction. Now luck will decide if it is a big deal for my plan: if the AI civs can help me with mapmaking (lead to seafaring) before I get both republic and construction, then I'll be ok (a harbor is all I need); otherwise I'll not be able to use WLTKD to its full benefit.