26-05-2001 20:31									#1
	SMAX bug - is it know? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This is a very stupid bug, and I'm just sitting here and wondering if this one is known in the SMAC circles, or not.
I was fighting Cha Dawn, till he got submissive, and signed a pact with me. He had no headquarters remaining, and this is the most important fact. He had only two bases, that later seemed very good positioned to me, for my goals. Of course, I could simply renounce the pact with Cha and take them with part of my army still positioned there, but I decided to call him through the commlink, and ask if he would give me the bases. First was sold for 350 energy, the second for about 500. I had enough cash, so for this money I got two well-placed bases. But, these were the only bases belonging to the Cult! Checking their profile and datalinks, I saw he possessed no bases. Next turn I saw a message that the Planet Cult has been eradicated.
Kinda stupid. It's impossible if the faction in question has headquarters, but in this situation, you can eradicate someone by paying them enough money.
Happened in SMAX v.2.0.

	26-05-2001 23:00									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Hah! There is thread on this board where the exact opposite happened. Apparently in that thread, the AI submissive had lost all bases and pods, but was still communicating.

In your game, you may want to reload and swap bases for the two submissive bases. A submissive is alway a very good thing to have.

Ned

	27-05-2001 15:11									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, a submissive IS your loyal slave that would do whatever you want her/him to do . Anyway, they are counted as eradicated in the game score so this wouldn't make much diference, would it?

	28-05-2001 14:23									#4
	Got spare money?

Just threaten to cancel the pact and they will give you their bases and money for free. However, once they have regrown to a certain size, demands for energy will only net you meagre amounts even if they have 1000 credits.

	28-05-2001 14:51									#5
	Got spare money?

Yeah, this very same thing happened to me. Lal was submissive but was being attacked by Zakharov - and I couldn't negotiate a Truce because I'd aggravated the war using a probe team framing!
Lal had a single ocean base left, and when I opened a commlink channel and prepared to demand the last of his money (I wasn't about to let Zakharov get his hands on 500+ credits - we'd just salvaged the Unity fusion core) I noticed that the 'turn over one of your bases to me' option was still active. So just for a laugh I decided to threaten to break off the Pact unless he gave it up. He did, but he wasn't eradicated!
Anyway, I didn't want some disincorporeal Lal floating around doing untold damage, so I waited a turn and then gave the base back (after having stocked it with a reasonable number of decent defenders).
Actually that brings me onto another point. I remember trying (for no apparent reason) to defend the Data Angels, so whilst pacted with them I moved several Photon Sentinels into their closest base and gave them to the Angels. Next turn the things had downgraded to Synthmetal Sentinels! Mad!
In Civ II what would happen there is that the civ to which you gifted the unit would make a discovery that would allow them to keep that unit. In SMAX, apparently what happens is that they revert to the current tech level of that faction!

	29-05-2001 21:46									#6
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I provide "life support gifts" to submissives if they are in danger of being knocked out by another vendetta. Donate a useless base (or several, for even more commerce income) somewhere on the other side of the world from the raging conflict. Then demand the threatened base and garrison it.

quote: Originally posted by SMAC Fanatic Actually that brings me onto another point. I remember trying (for no apparent reason) to defend the Data Angels, so whilst pacted with them I moved several Photon Sentinels into their closest base and gave them to the Angels. Next turn the things had downgraded to Synthmetal Sentinels! Mad! In Civ II what would happen there is that the civ to which you gifted the unit would make a discovery that would allow them to keep that unit. In SMAX, apparently what happens is that they revert to the current tech level of that faction!

When a Pact Bro gifts me units with better weapons/armor, my experience has been that I can then build more - but don't get the tech. Same when I give them things (1-6-1 AAA defenders don't bother me when they belong to my pets). I've never seen a downgrade.

Other related point: frequently when I give away a base, all its defenders either disappear or are returned to my nearest base. Sometimes they remain as is. I cannot tell what predicts which will happen.

	30-05-2001 03:17									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have seen a downgrade in MP. I gifted an AAA scout to a pact brother - the idea was to enable him to build AAA units without having the tech itself. As soon as control of the unit was transferred, it reverted to an ordinary scout

We tried again. This time, he upgraded/disbanded a couple of old synthmetal garrison units he had, so he had no synth units at all. I sent him a synth AAA unit ... and it remained a synth AAA unit.

It seems that when you transfer a unit, the game only looks at armour/weapons/reactor/chassis to see whether this is something new to add to the workshop list. If none of these is new, it appears to convert the unit to an existing design ...

Quite a nasty surprise to find out that special abilities don't work in the expected manner.

It doesn't explain why the photon sentinels were downgraded to synth in the other example. It could be something to do with the way the workshop works though. I am often asked if I'd like to "upgrade" my units to something inferior when I make a breakthrough, or when I introduce a lower-spec design.

	30-05-2001 06:30									#8
	Suffering from ads?

I haven't fully figured this out myself, but I have seen all of the following:

an inferior unit gifted to you is upgraded by the gift to a current model in your queue;

an inferior unit comes "as is' and is added to the queue - you are allowed one upgrade, then further units do not appear in the queue and must be individually upgraded;

a superior unit captured (marine, probe) by you will not go into the cue so that you can effectively upgrade from its model;

however, I have seen the opposite as well.

Ned

	30-05-2001 22:05									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Or the inferior unit (e.g., Gatling foil) you bribed away from the AI shows up on the build list, while the Tachyon Foil you want to upgrade it to has been removed. Too much time is spent in the sweaty workshop recreating the same units.

	31-05-2001 03:36									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Ned an inferior unit comes "as is' and is added to the queue - you are allowed one upgrade, then further units do not appear in the queue and must be individually upgraded; a superior unit captured (marine, probe) by you will not go into the cue so that you can effectively upgrade from its model;

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the "queue" here. If you mean the list of current unit designs available to be built when you click on the build queue, then my reply will make sense. If not, then apologies.

Superior/inferior units might not appear in the build queue list of current designs, but can always be found in the workshop slots. So it shouldn't be necessary to upgrade them individually. Captured units which you don't have the tech to build can also be found there, then modified, replicated and/or upgraded, in all of my games to date. As far as I know, the only units you don't see in the bowels of the workshop are the Unity variants?

	31-05-2001 05:24									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We had a thread not too long ago about the "morality" of reverse engineering, or using superior weapons/armor acquired from other factions in new designs without having the techs. Since then, I played a game in which I probed away (separate) units with superior weapons and armor. I found that while I could build other units with those weapons or armor, I was unable to build a unit with both the superior weapon and superior armor. Very interesting; it seemed to suggest that the designers were not so much in favor of reverse engineering as I had previously thought. It also introduces some practical problems with the kind of swapping and trading proposed in that thread.

	01-06-2001 08:28									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It must be something I'm doing then. I have had several recent games where I captured cruisers before I had the tech. The unit did not appear in the design queue so that I could build more. BTW, I have autodesign off. Ned

	02-06-2001 09:42									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ned, are you talking about the list of current, available units or the workshop slots? They are different things - I'm not sure what the absolutely correct terms for them are.

What I'm calling the "current available units" can be viewed by clicking on the build queue in the city screen. The workshop slots can be viewed at the bottom of the workshop screen, the one where you design new units.

In the example you mention, you wouldn't get a cruiser in the list of current available units, nor would you be able to design one. But if you go through the tedious process of cycling through 1,127 tiny little boxes at the bottom of the workshop screen (the "slots" where all your current and obsolete designs are stored), you will find the cruiser there. Clicking on it brings it up in the main, design unit box. And then you can modify it, or simply save it. Once you have done this, the cruiser unit you saved will appear in the list of current, available units.

If you're saying that it doesn't appear in the workshop slots, then I don't know what the answer is ...

	02-06-2001 10:10									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by johndmuller I found that while I could build other units with those weapons or armor, I was unable to build a unit with both the superior weapon and superior armor. Very interesting; it seemed to suggest that the designers were not so much in favor of reverse engineering as I had previously thought. It also introduces some practical problems with the kind of swapping and trading proposed in that thread.

I'm not sure that this means anything new about the designers' attitude towards reverse-engineering, does it?

You're right, you can't combine the superior weapon and armour in your example, and this is how it should work. When you probe a unit, you are able to build more of the same unit. You can also modify the unit design by using weapons, armour and so on for which you have the tech. But you don't acquire the ability to use the probed technology freely, as if you had the tech itself. So it's logical that you can't design units combining more than one probed attribute, unless you have probed away a single unit which features the desired combination.

	02-06-2001 20:23									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

Misotu, What I am talking about is the row of slot in the workshop.

Tell me that you have captured or probed a cruiser while not having the tech and it appears in one of those slots and I will know that something is different about what I am doing.

Note, that having a different chasis design is completely diffferent from armor or weapons or special abilities.

Ned

	03-06-2001 06:07									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I have probed away a cruiser while not having the tech and it appears in one of those slots.

I have saved it as a current design.

I have also modified it, from one of those slots.

I have repeated all of this in a scenario, tonight, in the interests of thoroughness, and I have the file to prove it.

I will send it to you if you like.

I have also been able to do this with the needlejet chassis in a real game in both MP and SP, so I afraid I don't understand your chassis comment.

So now you know that there is something different about what you are doing. Hope it helps.

	03-06-2001 07:08									#17
	Put an end to popups!

Misotu, Not to be pest on this topic, but does it make any difference if you capture the cruiser with marines?

Do you have auto design off?

Do you have auto prune on?

Ned

	04-06-2001 03:53									#18
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You're not a pest

I have experimented with auto-design, and it appears to make no difference, ditto auto-prune. Went through all this before in an MP game where, coincidentally, I was gifted a cruiser with auto-design off and auto-prune on.

Have never captured a cruiser with marines, so I don't know on that one.

I know you're not the kind of person to make this mistake, but are you *absolutely* sure it's not there? I've really never seen this ...

It could be something weird, like a one-off. I recently played an MP game where my partner *swore* that, as the Hive without Doc:Mobility, she did not have the option to build a 2-move probe team. So I am not discounting weirdness here. Has this happened to you in multiple games, or only once? SMAC can be ... er ... to say the least ... a little flaky

	04-06-2001 04:23									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

M, Yes, it happens every game. Since I never use sea probes, we seem to be left with "capturing" cruisers being different.

However, let me also say that may time I probe or capture units of an obsolete design that do not appear in the design queue. This happens after I have previously upgraded that same design.

I also use 180x120 maps normally. This may be causing a problem.