27-05-2001 00:02									#1
	need help on probe team calculation - txt Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

reading vels strategy guide (and using common sense) it appears nice to equip probe teams with ECM (or at least thoses who are protecting my armies and my cities) in order to protect better against those rover-chassised enemy probes

when reflecting the reason i almost never practised that i came to the conclution that it wont work. well, than someone or somewhat might be going wrong, so tested by a set-up scenario the different combination. nevertheless, *all* fights were carried out 1:1 doesnt matter (neighter special improvements as sensors and tachyon fields i knew before nor) if the aggesor is on rover-base and the defender got ECM.

so my question is: is there a setting to make this right - or is the idea false (and with that maybe a vault in vels guide 3.0) ?

	27-05-2001 01:05									#2
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A secret vault in Vel's guide?

You completely missed out one point: probe-combat is NOT normal combat. It is carried out basing on unit's morale ONLY.
NO modifiers are ever applied to probe combat, apart those for the morale (unless they added some probe-specific one in SMAX, which I can't recall offhand).
This happens when a probe of any kind attacks another probe of any kind.
This is the same concept of PSI-Combat, although there some modifiers can be applied in some cases.

When the probe is attacked by a conventional unit instead, there is another problem:
the unarmored probes have a defense strength of ZERO.
Even if you multiply it by 1.5 for ECM you have 0 * 1.5 = 0 (sometimes the game shows 0.01...)

If you really want to apply that tactic, you must add an armor to the probe. That way, it WILL have a defensive strength, and it won't suffer the non-combat penalty when defending.
I repeat, this will NOT apply against rover-chassis probes (the *default "probe team" design), it will only help your probe against conventional rovers.

Beware tho then, that probe equipment has a slot design value of 4, thus you should calculate the unit cost as if yiou were building an impact unit.
In an "impact"+armored unit, the ECM ability will cost 2 with armor2, 1 with armor3&4. Is it the unit cost worth the benefit?
I won't even talk about putting the combinations above on a speeder probe...

---
I forgot to address this:
AFAIK there is NO setting to make this right, probe-combat mode is embedded in the code for probe-equipped units.

It IS right the way it is, and Vel's Giude too. It's you that should grab the underlying concepts better, and I hope I could help you.

	27-05-2001 08:09									#3
	Remove this text

MariOne:

I've always been under the impression that a probe team with ECM would defend with morale AND +50% modifier...Vel's guide supports this view. This is the exact quote: "Is your opponent approaching with 0-0-2 (speeder-based) probes? If so, why not upgrade all your defensive probes in the area to ECM variants, giving you a 50% bonus in the upcoming fight?". Also...would a defending probe in a base with a perimeter defense get the usual +125% combat bonus?

	27-05-2001 11:06									#4
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well, i guess to continue to defend myself with normal infantry-chassied probes

i was not thinking of the costs but on the use, with good ecomony i otherwise build the cheap ones and upgraded em...

	27-05-2001 21:46									#5
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NetMaverick:
I've NEVER been under the impression that a probe team with ECM would defend with morale AND +50% modifier.
I learned that probe-combat is ONLY affected by morale.
I never imagined to think that the "rover chassis" of the NORMAL probe team would have to be treated in the same way as with conventional units. Nor does the fast chassis grant the attacking probe the "mobile in open" moidifer...

I just gave you my free advice.
Read these words:

In probe-combat, FORGET any modifier, except the morale one, which is the essence of such combat.


This answers to your other question too.

You want to heed it? Glad having been of help.
You don't? You're welcome, and I wish you fun games with SMAC.

BTW, I know NO "usual" 125% combat bonus. What are you talking about? Did you see such modifier in the combat display with your own eyes?
Would you maybe prefer to do some tests to verifiy your syatements?

	28-05-2001 02:03									#6
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MariOne:

Thanks for the help. I was inquiring whether the inherent 25% defense bonus when in a base and a perimeter defense, which would provide +100% to defending conventional units, would have the same effect on probe teams.

editted to add: Would a probe team suffer the -50% attack penalty for attacking another probe team the same turn it makes an airdrop?

Last edited by Net Maverick on 28-05-2001 at 02:19

	28-05-2001 11:53									#7
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an air-dropped probe team loose all movement points when landing

	28-05-2001 19:26									#8
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yes the airdropped probe loses all movement points regardless of chassis. This means that it is often best to drop them just outside sensor range of your enemy for future actions. My main use of airdropped probes is to drop them in a base I have just captured as probe defense.

Armored probes-- I find these to be good sentries and explorers since no support or unhappiness. In my bases I never bother to armour probes(unless they are to be the only garrrison) since they are destroyed automatically with the last military unit in the base. There are times where I have used an armoured probe as the sole garrison but that is usually when drone control is not an issue AND I am trying to lessen support costs AND the base is outside air or airdrop range of rival factions.

Since most of my bases have an actual military unit present (for the police effect or just simple military prudence), the only use for such a probe would be to rush it out of the base as a defensive unit. Generally home probe defense can be accomplished by a cheap unarmoured probe unit while the armored guys go roving, making their armour most useful.

	28-05-2001 20:02									#9
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when defending a base with a mixture of probes and garrisons just put the probes as "primary defenders" unless your opponent use nerve gas

	28-05-2001 21:51									#10
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Primary defender for armoured probes is a great idea. Unfortunately it doesn't work.

I think the point MoSe was making, is that before you ask a question, or give advise, check it out first in the scenario editor, or in a game. (MoSe, correct me if I'm wrong).

Asking questions that you could have answered yourself with little effort (Simple tests, or read the manual), saves time for others, although we really don't mind.

Giving faulty advice is more dangerous. Something could slip by unnoticed by someone who knows. I also was guilty in the past of offering untested ideas as fact. Better to test before you post, or at least add a "I'm not sure, but..."

OTOH, post away. The more interaction on these boards the better. If we didn't have inquiring minds, we may never have found out about true ecodamage formulas, combat rules, upgrade costs, hurry costs, etc., etc. My hat is off to all of you who put so much effort into testing these scenarios.

	29-05-2001 11:46									#11
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Thank thee for apelling me back to reality
well, some times its easy to post an idea - but as i am not perfect (who is?) my last idea was standard answer and i didn't think a lot before i wrote it down.
but i will try to test my ideas before posting next times

	30-05-2001 00:14									#12
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quote: Originally posted by MariOne In probe-combat, FORGET any modifier, except the morale one, which is the essence of such combat.

I know that the reactor type has an effect on probe-combat, by giving you more hit points.

Other factors that I thought effected it (but haven't tested and I don't do a whole lot of probe combat) are: probe rating in SE & possibably Miriam's attack bonus (though it may just be Miriam's + probe faction bonus)

Spaceman Spiff

	01-06-2001 04:21									#13
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quote: Originally posted by SpacemanSpiff I know that the reactor type has an effect on probe-combat, by giving you more hit points.

Absolutely! This makes a big difference.

quote: Originally posted by SpacemanSpiff Other factors that I thought effected it (but haven't tested and I don't do a whole lot of probe combat) are: probe rating in SE & possibably Miriam's attack bonus (though it may just be Miriam's + probe faction bonus)

I believe that those things just affect the initial morale and are therefore already covered by MariOne.

If Probe combat is like Psi, is there also an attacker advantage?

	01-06-2001 07:52									#14
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Alien probes have the +25% combat advantages.
So Marr's probes have a 25% attack bonus. H'mniee's probes have a +25% defensive bonus.

"fanatic" bonus does not apply for probe team combat, so Miriam's probes dont get an attack bonus.

	01-06-2001 17:29									#15
	Remove this text

By the way..
Has anyone tested to build a probe on an infantry chassis for getting 25% infantry attack bonus against a probe in a base? I have thought about this, but then ECM doesn't work with probes, this shouldn't work as well.

	02-06-2001 17:39									#16
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well, no +25% bonus as well...

	06-06-2001 22:08									#17
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Thanks b_c!
The fact is, that I so many times suggested to do some tests before posting concepts that can be so easily tested by yourself, that I realize I got a bit sarcastic in answering to NetMav.
Thanks to NetMav for not taking exception at my overtones.

I agree with the rest of your posts, you all did a good investigative job. BTW, it's true that HitPoints make a big difference, it's just that they strictly speaking do not appear as "modifiers".

Funny thing, is that one of my first intervention in this technical forum (looong time ago...) was to state that it was indeed possible to designate armored probes as defenders.
I distinctly remember having done that in a scenario, on my work PC (former company...) at a time when the latest patches were not yet out.
When someone politely objected to it, I rushed to test it again with confidence, and with dismay I found out that I wasn't able to reproduce it anymore! And of course I didn't keep copy of that test... I had to add my stupefied apologies in that thread!

---

I was almost forgetting:
NetMav, probe-combat apart where they do not apply, the 25% base bonus and the 100% perimeter modifier are NOT cumulative anyway! When you have a perimeter, the 25% base bonus is no more counted! You only get 100% (against land attacks), NOT 125%

	07-06-2001 01:35									#18
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Ahhh...thought it was cumulative. Thanks for clearing me up on that. My apologies for not testing my assumptions in a scenario.