27-05-2001 00:29									#1
	Science and advances - a suggestion Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hello all, I have several ideas for Civ3, and since this is my first post I thought I'd start with one and mention the others later so people have time to discuss properly.

I hope this idea hasn't been posted before...

I think there should be a cost for being the first civ to discover an advance. For example: the civ to first discover nuclear power would pay 20% extra in science points compared to all others who then discover that advance. Due to the flow of information throughout the world, including in ancient times, it should make sense that once a civilisation has discovered something, other civs, especially those in close contact, would be able to make the same discovery quicker due to their ability to copy.

Furthermore, once a nation is aware of the existence of something, it is much easier to work towards developing it rather than when something is discovered thru chance etc. For example, if a civ had universities, other civs would recognise the benefits of this and work towards emulating them.

Ideally I hope a more complex science method will be employed. I'd like to see the most backward civilisations being able to discover advances in less time as the number of other civs with that advance increase. So automobiles would be easier to discover for a small civ once all other civs had discovered it for example. Is this workable, or even plausible???

	27-05-2001 00:34									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

While this may happen in real life, it would slow down decoveries alot and if you were the smartest civ it would put a penitly on you. Besides you can always just steal it.

	27-05-2001 00:53									#3
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i dont like this idea.

why would you hinder scientific advancement for the foremost race?

That race probably bent it's entire economy / production on scientific research, and you want to penialize them for it?

doesn't sound to good to me

	27-05-2001 14:22									#4
	Support Apolyton

I disagree.

You have to spy to find out anything about the other techs. Maybe if you take control over a fortress, you should get closer to discover construction, and the same way around with all improvements, both on map and in cities. But there shall be no penalty to the first one.

	28-05-2001 01:03									#5
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What I think the original idea means is that through research assitance and spying, later civs/nations are able to make advances faster. Like the Soviets got the A-bomb much quicker then expected due to post-war spys. Giving research assistance would be anice feature. If you have a tech and assist another civ who is researching it, you would half the research time. It would promote good-will between civs and also help the lesser civ out, while still not outright giving away tech.

	28-05-2001 20:11									#6
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV What I think the original idea means is that through research assitance and spying, later civs/nations are able to make advances faster. Like the Soviets got the A-bomb much quicker then expected due to post-war spys. Giving research assistance would be anice feature. If you have a tech and assist another civ who is researching it, you would half the research time. It would promote good-will between civs and also help the lesser civ out, while still not outright giving away tech.

Thats kind of what Im trying to say SerapisIV!!! I don't mean a huge penalty, but one that gives the smaller civs a chance to stay not too far the cutting edge. A civ still producing chariots while its neighbour has invented tank warfare just doesnt work nor make sense. Civs tend to copy ideas other civs already have very quickly. I'm not saying create a huge penalty to deter leading civs discovering an advance but more a system where lowly civs have an easier go at discovering advances. I've played games where I could have 20 more civ advances than other civs. I just think 10% extra amount of research for a civ that discovers something first would lead to a more balanced and competitive game!!

	02-06-2001 02:46									#7
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In CivII there's already a penalty for being the farthest ahead in the research department.

	02-06-2001 03:17									#8
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This is a bad idea, IMO. Realism is silly without solid gameplay, and this is one example. In all games, you generally reap what you sow. If you work towards massive amount of trade and science and skimp on other things to get ahead in research, the game should not penalize you. If the other civs want to catch up, they should put their own initiative into it instead of letting the game do it for them. If you want to be on the same footing as everybody else, you should be actually putting effort into it!

	02-06-2001 04:44									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

this should only be able to be accomplished by a network of spies. The more spies, located in more cities = more bonus. Also, each trade route with that civ can have bonus, and maybe each city captured from them does not yield an advance, but yields a big percentage of research.

	02-06-2001 04:56									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yeah spies sound better I liked the Imp II idea.

If you can SPAM I can too.
You've only got 0.98 posts a day on your thing yet you've posted more then me and registered after me and I'm at 1.68 posts a day. ?? duh?

	02-06-2001 04:56									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree with the man from Duke.

For example the soviets actually stole the secret to the A-bomb....rather than figuring it out. Though you still have to interpret plans etc blah blah. If your behind, use spies, trade and alliances. Gameplay should not be sacrificed for alleged "realism". We are playing a game that spans 6000yrs (or so). We are going to have to sacrifice pure realism.

	02-06-2001 06:09									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I suppose it would actually make the game look bad if someones civ has discovered automobile, while another civ is still researching bronze, however i believe civ iii should not be excactly like the world we live in, or it will take the fun away from it. Besides it's just a game, so it shouldn't matter too much - i agree with cyclotron7, if you play well, you get the rewards, if you don't, bad luck.

	02-06-2001 06:16									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

But even at the basic level of it, there would be no point in arranging your economy to squeeze that extra 20% into research, since its going to be wiped out by the penalty for being first to research. In this case just sit in second and pour that extra 20% into economy or production: hey your only going to get the tech two turns later anyway.

I haven't been around for a while, so is there going to be custom civs like SMAC factions? If there is, this penalty would make any University like civ a waste of time (since your 20% tech bonus is going to be wasted anyway).

There have been other ideas for leaky tech (and in fact the original civ incorporated this): the more trade you have the more research points you get. The only way you can hear about new advances is through trade so highly trading cities produce more research.

	03-06-2001 01:09									#14
	Got spare money?

also, if you gave a civ a unit they they did not have the technology to build in civ 2, they had a chance of getting the tech with it.

i remember i gave the babylonians a nuke once so they could defend themselves against egypt, and i got a popup that said "Your gift has sparked a Breakthrough in Babylonian Science", and then another "Babylonians Develop Rocketry".

then the babs had the balls to call it "their nuclear club"

	03-06-2001 04:41									#15
	Along the lines of Science and advances Tired of ads?

a long time ago, after having Civ2 for a few days, a friend and myself were talking on ways to make the game better. One of the ideas he mentioned was this:

City Building should be considered a technology, and somehow make the infamous Tech Tree a tech.

Well that was awhile ago, so I'll try to explain more about what we said...

At the begining of the game (4000 BC) you cannot build any cities. You only have 1 settler who can make a dwelling. This dwelling would be like a small nomadic village. When you click the dwelling, you would get something like the City Screen, but you can only build more settlers in the build window. In the city management screen, all the titles would be worked, however they would all be anarchy level production, and only produce Shields. The 'Dwelling' does not need food. The Dwelling can be disbanded and you can get that settler back, and you can move it. Once you have made your first dwelling, your science starts. The first tech you can research is Tech Tree. My friend called it Technology Advancement. Then from there you got road making, mining. Irrigation is a given, that comes with the Agricultural revolution. Then there are some more, like a Religious branch, Construction Branch and War Branch on the tech tree, or something close to that. If you went into the Construction Branch you could research City Building... from city building, all previously created dwellings (you can have more than one) become cities and your settlers can now create cities when you tell them to.

Anyway, I just thought that it might be interesing to think over... much different from the origanal start up of Civ now... When I think about it now, it could be changed a little, buts thats what my friend came up with.