27-05-2001 06:08									#1
	Is The Planetary Transit SP Worth It? Put an end to popups!

I remember building this once. And to be honest it was more of a nuisance than asset. My bases would end up starving down to one anyway. So what's the point. I have never lost a game to a faction that had it. Now I don't bother wasting resources getting it. Is it worth more in Multiplayer than in Single Player?

	27-05-2001 07:46									#2
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Short answer yes with an if, Long answer no with a but.
Sounds like you need more formers. just forests would keep you at pop 2.

But actually it depends. I'm something of a perfectionist, so I tend to have a well established core of bases by the time i get this, but if you're more of an expansionist, or you get to it earlier, its probably worth your while.

	27-05-2001 10:34									#3
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It depends on your drone management more than anything. If your faction has some psych-producing SPs already, or if your faction has a decent police rating it is much more valuable than if you don't. Most of us play at Transcend these days, but it would be a whole lot easier to use at the lower levels.

In accelerated start games against the AI, I seem to get this SP more than my fair share of times. And I have to admit, in most cases I'd rather have one of the other early SPs. For my style of play almost any other early SP is better.

	27-05-2001 16:21									#4
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I think that this SP is only good if you are aiming for a Diplomatic Victory. I find it a nuisance especially when I have a high bureocracy or drone rating.

	27-05-2001 21:57									#5
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The PTS, a "nuisance"?????

	27-05-2001 22:40									#6
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Remember the other effect of the PTS, minus one drone in bases size 3 and smaller, this cane be very nice in ICS play style.

	28-05-2001 00:01									#7
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Well, yes MariOne, I do find it a nuisance when I get an instant drone riot and starvation (which isn't so bad though)!

Lefty Scaevola, I don't find -1 drone at size lower than 3 very useful because I seem to play at different strategies and greatly dislike ICS leaving me with dumb, poor-infrastructure bases in the end.

	28-05-2001 00:36									#8
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The PTS (like a lot of others) can be a hugely valuable SP in the right circumstances. Its advantages are obvious, but to fully appreciate the value of this SP, we should look at its advantages, and how they can be applied in a normal game environment:

1) All new bases are automatically given size three status from the get-go.

This can be hugely beneficial if you plan to start an expansion phase any time soon. It basically cuts the time it takes to get a pod out of your new base in half and as such, continents can be filled a lot more quickly.
This advantage is magnified if you have rainy terrain nearby, obviously - simply because the size 3 can be sustained.

The drones can also be a problem. However, if you simply starve the base to size 2, and let it develop as a size 2 base - it's better than your bog-standard size 1er, right?

2) One less drone in all bases of size 3 and under.

This is massive, and makes drone riots in your new bases unlikely, unless you have a *seriously* large and sprawling empire. Most drone problems can be alleviated by building a garrison straight off, or if you are running FM, rushing a commons.

3) All existing bases that are less than size 3 are given automatic size 3 status.

This is the one a lot of people miss, and can be massively beneficial to your early game expansion. If you have recently undergone an expansion phase, your pop will benefit massively from this - and as your bases have some terraforming nearby, a lot of your bases won't starve straight off.

So, in what instances can this be useful? Using #1 as an example, any ICS-esque strategy can benefit from this. Though you may need to get a couple of formers to the base site beforehand, it effectively allows you to get infrastructure up in your new base that much quicker. Plus, the obvious advantages of having a higher pop - higher mineral output, research, and council votes, to name but three.

#2 can help alleviate most early game drone issues, and makes light of the bureaucracy issue in newly founded bases. As such, once again it is an ICS strategy that can benefit most.

#3 can help, once again, if you have recently plonked a load of bases down, and are having trouble getting infrastructure up.

Any perfectionist strategy isn't going to benefit from the PTS very much at all - you're better off going for the VW instead. However, if you are planning any sort of an expansion phase in the near future, the PTS can be massive, cutting your expansion time, effectively, in half.

How it can be described as a nuisance is beyond me, however.

	28-05-2001 03:27									#9
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Mark 13,

You make very good points on the PTS. David Byron was king of the ICS here a year and a half ago or so, and he used this SP very well. (All his bases were size three IIRC). You also mention 'the running start' strategy where you are in an expansion phase, build the PTS and suddenly your pop and energy go through the roof. The only thing that I think is important about the PTS that you did not mention is that bases can GA / Pop boom with three population. Starting a base at three means that it will grow up very quickly if you are booming. This is great in the late game if you want to run up the score. There is also the tactic of building a base as a colony pod seed. Attach a couple of mineral crawlers and have this base build colony pods. With the last pod rebuild the base. This works ok, though I tend to build pods while in a pop boom instead.

	28-05-2001 04:32									#10
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The PTS can tip the game in multiplayer. The trick is all in the timing. Build colony pods massively in all bases except the one building the PTS. When you have driven the population of your bases down to one or two by building pods, now complete the PTS. Your population can easily double instantly! If you have recycling tanks built or a single 2-nutrient tile, you won't have starvation. This pop-doubling trick is the main use of the PTS.

Planet size is important too. On a small planet, you will already have founded most of your bases by hte time you build it. The PTS is most useful on a huge planet. If your planet is arid or high in fungus, you will have a lot of bases starving. My favorite trick to avoid starvation is accompany each pod with a trance crawler and crawl in one nutrient and garrison the base at the same time.

	28-05-2001 07:29									#11
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I am a big fan of the PTS pop boom. I is a big early advantage to suddenly double (or almost triple, if you do it right), your population. And early turn advantage just multiplies.

You are right, it is a PIA later. It forces much more attention be focused on base placement with at least 1 - 2 nut square, or later on 2 - 2 nut squares, when one of the first citizens needs to be a doctor because of drone reasons. I often use a nearby crawler, of send 1 or 2 along to crawl 1 or 2 nuts for the first few turns, till the police, or rec com is built. This is a PIA, but it continues to help your game. I often build the PTS, and the HGP almost together to help avoid some of the MM and PIA.

I always instabuild them with crawlers. Better to have your investment in mins out working while you wait, rather than just sitting there. 10 crawlers for the PTS, and 6 or 7 for the HGP. This also hides your intent from anyone with infiltration.

The PTS is a luxury for any easy pop booming faction. The tough pop boomers, its a good investment. For Hive, and smac Morgan, its almost a must.

	29-05-2001 18:54									#12
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I agree with Mark 13 on the advantages - a good summary. In addition, I've found size 3 (or shrunk to 2) bases easier to defend and not lose on attack. The odd thing in my latest game of SMAX, however, is that my bases did not all expand to size three when I captured the PTS from Datajack Rose. I would expect the captured Alien bases not to do this, but my own earlier built bases also failed to expand. Is this normal, or a problem with my installation of SMAX?

	29-05-2001 19:08									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Mark 13, Starting a base at three means that it will grow up very quickly if you are booming. This is great in the late game if you want to run up the score.

But for the end-game purpose, there is less of a need to build the thing yourself. It's okay of Aki or Sven goes through the trouble of building it and "borrowing it" for awhile, if you expect to get it from them eventually.

Also, later in the game, starvation is less of an issue when you are getting decent production out of the fungus. With the right planet rating (or playing as Gaians), fungus gives you 2-0-1 pretty early and your starvation troubles are over.

	29-05-2001 19:11									#14
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I have frequently noticed bases that remain at size 1 or two after the completion of the PTS. Is this a bug or will the bases only grow up if there are sufficient nuts to sustain the higher population? IIRC the bases were in particularly arid areas and if they had expanded, they would have immediately started starving as well.

Overall I agree with Mark13's assessment of the advantages of the PTS and generally have it as a " like to have" SP. If you can prep the base sites at all, the instant size 3 can be maintained and for factions with lesser drone problems such as the Drones or Hive (running PS) this can be of particular benefit. I would never not want it but there are other projects that I prefer.

	29-05-2001 20:50									#15
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I agree to the points of Mark 13.

But I would like to add another argument:
The PTS is no must-have, but if You can build it, use it and found new bases (at good localities certainly). Build three hydrolab orbs, and there will be no starving. And then, You can boom Your population by founding new bases to be elected planetary Governor and harvest the trade and infiltration goodies.

	29-05-2001 21:02									#16
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Morganstern and cbn, I have experienced the same problem of the PT not taking all existing bases up to three. Looks like a bug, not an install problem.

	31-05-2001 08:20									#17
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The Planetary Transit System only provides that *new* bases, bases created after the secret project has been created, will start at size 3. Thus a base already established cannot start at size 3, as it as already started. So you can still have bases lower than size 3 if they're old and slow in growth.

	31-05-2001 16:26									#18
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Imp - it may differ between versions or something, but I have *definitely* used the PTS to bring size 1 & 2 bases straight up to size 3, in both SP & MP. I use (like the majority of people here, I would imagine) SMACX v2.

Come to think of it, I've also had it happen in SMAC v4.

	31-05-2001 16:48									#19
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Mark, it dosen't happen to my faction in our current MP...

	31-05-2001 18:39									#20
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Hmmm, all the lousy size 1 alien leftover bases stayed lousy size 1 alien leftover bases once I captured the PTS. Does it only work that way if you build it yourself? The times I do go for that SP, my primary bases are already over size 3, and I've saved up expansion until after it's in place (colony pods waiting in the wings and formers/ sea formers prepping some sites).

	31-05-2001 19:32									#21
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It may be only when you've built it yourself, not sure - though I am absolutely certain that it should work when you do build it - I have used it as a strategy, and so would have noticed had it not worked.

It is very strange, though, that people are reporting it not to work - could this be a new bug exclusive to the PP or something?

	01-06-2001 00:54									#22
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I seem to remember it working in both versions, but can only attest to SMACX right now.

As an aside, I know that if your recently "PTS boomed" bases loses a population point due to lack of nutrients and goes back down to 2 it doesn't boom back to 3 next turn. At least that has been my experience thus far.

I've come to appreciate the PTS recently as I've come to understand that in multiplayer games you tend to need more bases than in single player.

	01-06-2001 03:27									#23
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Mark, I'm pretty sure the increasing of current bases to size three only happens at the moment it is constructed. I have seen it happen to me (SMACX v2) and I'm pretty sure I've also seen that size 1/2 bases remain there when I capture them.

That's all in SP though. I have no clue what happens in MP.

	01-06-2001 06:03									#24
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Mark: I consider myself warned for DT8

My experience with the PTS is that existing bases all rise to size 3 when the SP builds. Bases captured after that point will not increase in size. New bases start at size 3. I don't know what happens to Alien bases, never been in that situation. This is true for both MP and SP.

I have seen Big_C use the PTS very effectively. I, on the other hand, will take it if it's available but it wouldn't be my top priority. It doesn't really suit my style of play. When I build it in MP, it's generally as a spoiler tactic I'm afraid.

	01-06-2001 19:12									#25
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Yes, the PTS does raise all bases previously built to size 3. (Not sure about captured bases, or captured PTS).

I think the confusion might arise from not having enough nuts to feed 3 citizens. In that case, the base goes to 3, but immediately starves back to 2 or 1. You must have one 2 nut square (and two 1 nut squares) in the base radius to support 3 citizens(pre nut satellite, of course)

	01-06-2001 20:57									#26
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Thanks gang

That is consistent with my experience of some bases "remaining" at size 1 after building the PTS. IIRC if the base does not have enough nuts at that time, it will grow "normally" later when the nuts are available. So post PTS it is possible to have a base with lots of nuts at size 1 or 2 for a while.