23-05-2000 09:53									#1
	Republic Vs Monarchy Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Okay here's the situation large sprawling civ - over 20 cities in multiplayer game with 4 others. Early happy wonders gone. Its around 1000 AD. Falling behind in population. Which government is better?

	23-05-2000 11:31									#2
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I'd change back to Despotism. It is clearly the best government for you in this situation. Your pop will be caught up in no time.

	23-05-2000 11:46									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

depends on the difficulty level(I'll assume deity level) and whether or not you have happy infastructure(temples,colliseum,market,bank,stock exchange,cathedral) AND trade routes.Trade routes are very important.Especially for representative governments.

if you have all that then Republic.If not you will have to run very high luxuries so stay Monarchy until this infastructure is built.

also depends on city sizes.Temple and market with trade routes should keep cities out of disorder up to size 7 or 8 with 20 or 30% luxuries depending on terrain and specials

Do you have The Statue?Is it still available?is wonder sharing allowed?Maybe you could make a deal with The Statue owner to "borrow" it for a turn and go Commie.

without happy wonders you really have to prepare for representative governments.Unless you like 50,60% luxuries.

If you are playing king level,remember that the first 3 are content.That is equivalent of Mich's without Theology.So the switch is much easier.

Do you have many units in the field?(not in fortress')In Republic,first one makes a happy citizen content.After that,everyone makes an unhappy citizen.Just another thing to consider.

A Monarchy can keep up in science and gold but you have to build and deliver many caravans/freights and build courthouses to curb corruption.This takes alot of time and effort though.

generally there isn't much use switching to representative unless you can immediately use "we love" to celebrate to at least size 8.

probably raised more questions than answers

	23-05-2000 11:48									#4
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Indeed...using WLTAHD in despotism,your population will *boom*.
Don't forget to pillage your irrigated fields to gain more food.

	23-05-2000 11:58									#5
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Smash, thanks. I can't say too much about some of your points because opponents are watching Yes, the game is Deity. Problem I have is, I've been in an expansion phase and I have a lot of cities under 3 in pop. Should I concentrate on expanding the core cities under republic or slip back to monarchy until these cities are 3 in size? Other demogs are good. A ssume no access to wonders - the other 4 players are allied so I'm at a big disadvantage in the wonders race and pretty much given up on it, butI have GL.

	23-05-2000 12:14									#6
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well if you are managing 20 odd cities with those extra unhappies in Monarchy then you are doing pretty good, all things considered.

probably the time to go into development mode for awhile.Settlers can road and irrigate(must be 1x production) while you develop a bit.They can also road and irrigate future city sites.After Republic, those "extra" unhappies will disaapear for the most part and you can enter expansion mode again.

not having happy wonders is a disadvantage but you can still build caravans.They are the most powerful unit(next to settler itself) you have.Provided your borders are secure and you are not threatened.

Problem is-you build all that infastructure and someone comes along with bunch-o-diplomats and tears it all down.

If you have been sacrificing the wonder race to maintain a strong military,maybe now is the time to use it.Sometimes,slowing others down is the best way to keep up

wait a sec...the other 3 are allied?Hmmmm...thats not good.They must be scared of something

perhaps you could undermine this unholy alliance and sway one to your vision of the world?This would most definitely be a priority for me.3 vs 1? Scoundrels
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited May 23, 2000).]

	23-05-2000 12:19									#7
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Smash, thanks again. Lots of food for thought, for my rivals as well I mention no names, makeo.

Oh, and its 2X 2player alliances in a 5 player game - I'm all alone

But my military is very strong and I'm fairly secure, having a whole continent to myself on a large map


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited May 23, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited May 23, 2000).]

	23-05-2000 12:50									#8
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Switzerland eh?That can be a problem in odd numbered games.A 3 way alliance might be a possibility,but they would probably treat you as a "junior" partner.

Put an "open for business" sign up and welcome ALL caravans.Maybe a small levy could be assessed.

perhaps you should make an effort to control the seas.

should be a challenging game.You'll probably learn alot

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In a MP game I only care about getting a good ally. Nothing else is as important.....Xin Yu

	23-05-2000 12:53									#9
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Any other views out there? I might be playing tonight

Smash, I'll be on icq in about 3 hours time, maybe we could discuss further then. Since I'm the only player without an ally in this game, I don't have anyone to brainstorm with.

[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited May 23, 2000).]

	23-05-2000 13:59									#10
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Ah, Is communism not an option? It's a great 1/2 way govt!! and you said you've got a great military, so a republic will cause you more trouble than it's worth with a military!!!!!! and communism has virtually no corruption, so you could put your luxuries up, WLTCD sore point maybe!??! but if you do, you might be able to get republic trade with commie military support and contentment!!

But cause of the military, i'd say avoid republic, especially if you're out exploring or at war with them?!?!

Good luck all the same!!! i hope you kicks those guys arses, for ganging up on oyu like that!!!!!!!!!!

	23-05-2000 15:34									#11
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I think Smash touched on it - You have a continent to yourself switch all endeavour to becoming THE naval power - then a number of strategies are available such as destroying all opposition coastal cities - interdicting their communications and even the use of inland naval force!!! See the canl thread here!
Good civin'

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	23-05-2000 16:13									#12
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some have not met with others yet

	23-05-2000 16:54									#13
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Just got Copernicus, don't have communism yet.

	23-05-2000 17:10									#14
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Just stay in monarchy until you can really take advantage of Republic with WLYD's.
And while you wait, build caravans. And when you have enough caravans, build some more.

The key to taking advantage of WLYD's without the Happiness wonders is to make sure you have marketplaces and Trade Routes. It will give you the money needed to buy the improvements to prepare for WLYD's, and your science will increase a ton!

	23-05-2000 18:14									#15
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AH - Ideally, you should have at least 32 cities when you start cranking the luxuries in Republic. With that number of cities, each city will have a double unhappy (black hat) citizen (black hats start to appear after 16 cities in Republic). Two luxuries will convert a black hat to happy (vs. four luxuries for a red hat), which should make it easier to WLTPD.

Edit: or you may be able to achieve WLTKD under monarchy by cranking the luxuries. Then you'll have republic level trade with martial law and free support. You only need 24 cities to have a black hat in every city with Monarchy.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited May 23, 2000).]

	23-05-2000 18:49									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Actually I have been in republic for a while. Now switching to Democracy. Its hard work without wonders but at least the big cities are growing.

	23-05-2000 22:43									#17
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you got Cope's? very good!.Any chance of Sir Ike's in the same city?It'll be hard to keep up with you tech wise if have a nice science city.

	24-05-2000 03:34									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

When your cities are small, unit support takes up an important portion of your shield production, and monarchy would be better. After cities get to size 3, you can grow quickly if the cities are prepared with temple, marketplace, and trade routes, along with irrigated squares for food. All those small cities will eventually become powerhouses. Continue to expand and consolidate your continent. Try to establish foreign trade routes to your copernicus city.
If you can get SOL, Use fundamentalism to build up infrastructure and gold. Then switch to democracy to grow via WLTP days. After growth, cruise in communism for a while and start the cycle again. At some time you will need to stay in democracy to stop subversion.

	24-05-2000 06:25									#19
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Yeah um statue of liberty is gone so I'm just going to have to soldier on with trade and improvements. I got Copernicus mainly to stop others getting it - the city its in doesn't warrant Newton as well. Another problem I have is the other 4 civs are cooperating to prevent me getting techs through GL We really should have made this a non-cooperation/no alliances game since there are 5 civs but never mind, I'm making the best of things. I'm in democracy now and concentrating on building caras and city happiness improvements. Holding my own at the moment techs and pop wise - no easy task against 2 powerful alliances. Its about 1200 AD and 1 alliance just finished scoping my continent with boats. The beauty of building caras is the option of instant troops if anyone gets invasion ideas. Thanks for all the advice


[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited May 23, 2000).]

	24-05-2000 16:30									#20
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what more advantage do you need horse you are playing the world's worst player and your only real concern is the MAKE FIN BAR alliance

	25-05-2000 06:01									#21
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Sorry Hydey, this world's worst player tag just isn't going to cut the mustard any more. Under Deity's tutelage, you have been ahead of me on the powergraph for most of the game. Hell, you just got the Statue!!!!! I'm far from the worst player around so what does that make you?

As for the makeo finbar alliance, I agree, they are a threat to us all and have been very unfriendly to me

	26-05-2000 10:59									#22
	Put an end to popups!

Whinge, whinge, whinge! Is it any wonder you're looked upon with suspicion when, at our first meeting, you launch an unprovoked attack? For crying out loud!

Still, at least you're talking to the best people in your attempt to get a grasp of strategy.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	26-05-2000 18:36									#23
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For those who are interested, I got Shakespeare's.

As for finbar, the city he mentions was attacked in BC. Its now after 1500 AD

	26-05-2000 18:39									#24
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Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. A very long memory, Horse. It pays.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	26-05-2000 18:51									#25
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*cough cough, paradigm paralysis, cough*

	26-05-2000 19:06									#26
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*chortle, chortle, testa di cazzo, chortle*

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591