28-05-2001 02:16									#1
	Wonders: Integral errors Full PM-box? Change here!

Anyone ever thought that building or not building Mike's Chapel makes for two HUGELY different games?

If you built it no problem things just move along. If you don't you're in for a rough ride. You'll have to increase luxury which will slow your progress signifanctly, you will slow down changing to more democratic and productive governments and in general you'll increase the difficulty factor of civ by 5 at least.

I think this is a very big error in the core of civ gameplay. The happiness administration in civ is implemented very sloppy. It's like you MUST have a hapiness wonder (in Emperor or Deity) on order not to prevail but merely to exist.

	28-05-2001 02:32									#2
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While it does make a difference, it is not insurmountable.
I have competed quite well in MP games without any of the happiness wonders.
And in SP games it really doesn't matter since the AI sucks and is very predictable, which translates to easily beatable.

A game based on high yielding trades routes can make up the difference in representative forms of governments. (markus is very proficient at this strat )

Or communism can drastically reduce the need for happiness wonders while still allowing for scientific growth. Celebrating in high trade cities to get the extra trade arrows like rep/dem can offset your disadvantage.

The only thing is that if you are playing one of these types of stratagies it means one/ or more of your opponents have the happiness wonders and will usually have a leg up in the tech race. You must aggressively harrass these civilizations to force them to divert resources into something other than science.

And Finally, an all out war strat, (Fundy) can be used as a strat of last resort. (if they're going to take me down, someone is coming with me)

So there are many ways to overcome. It depends on the situation. The best MP players are those that can adapt. Sometimes you aren't allowed to follow your favorite strat.

RAH

	28-05-2001 02:41									#3
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But all these you mentioned (tarde routs etc) are standard procedure whether you have or you don;'t have the wonder.
But in the first case you'll rocket your way to space flight, in the second you'll just keep your civ happy.

Still the difference of outcome is great no matter the strategy.
Plus you really can't go far by fonty except if you are planning on world conquest each and every time.

Also I think Deity and a bad start is a challenge to everybody even if they don;t want to admit it

	28-05-2001 04:09									#4
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Challanges brings out the best in the better players. Every start can't be great, and if they were, it would get boring.

And I have seen some players very successful without a single trade route. (rare but it does happen if the get a good tech window against an opponent) I.E. vet crusaders before the pikeman, etc.

RAH

	28-05-2001 04:34									#5
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To me the crucial happiness wonder is not Mike's, it's the HG. Without it my expansion is severely hampered and that primarily determines the type of strategy to follow. (I like that smiley)

	28-05-2001 12:02									#6
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Just have enough money to rush buy temples and expansion is no problem.

RAH

	28-05-2001 23:36									#7
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quote: Originally posted by rah Challanges brings out the best in the better players. Every start can't be great, and if they were, it would get boring. And I have seen some players very successful without a single trade route. (rare but it does happen if the get a good tech window against an opponent) I.E. vet crusaders before the pikeman, etc. RAH

I'm way to lazy to bother with trade routes. The game is quite easy without them. Who needs trades when you've got Fundy...

	29-05-2001 23:15									#8
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paiktis22,

I agree that Michaelangelo's Cathedral is very, very powerful. In fact most of the wonders are worth much more than their shield cost. They unbalance Civ2 IMHO. My games (all single player) are invariably races for early wonders. I need to get up the courage to try a "no wonders" game (which would be a great challenge for me and would drastically change my tech tree).

I also agree with jay Bee that the Hanging Gardens are very powerful. And unlike Michaelangelo's, the AI likes HG. Without the Hanging Gardens, my early civ limps along with cities full of dejected entertainers waiting to become setters to go off and found cities that are even more unhappy than the first. It's loss also makes celebrating your SSC more difficult.

I think DaveV regularly goes for Statue of Liberty instead of Michaelangelo's Chapel to make Communism his post-HG "happiness wonder".

	29-05-2001 23:47									#9
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Yup. That's my point. And I think that the happiness wonders are so powerful because the happiness issue is so purely implemented.
It is the most critical factor that affects the growth of your civ.

I tried to play at Deity and not build any happiness wonders and my civ ressembled a small village

	04-06-2001 21:33									#10
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Have a go at "no wonders" Edward. Or allow yourself just a couple, say Lighthouse and Magellan's. It turns out not so bad as you might think.

It makes it harder if you also play that you've got to destroy cities captured with a wonder in them but don't bother with that at first. Just see the effect of devoting the time you otherwise spend on wonder races to more focused development.

My game has shown signs for quite a while of evolving steadily away from wonder building.

To wean yourself off the contentment wonders in particular try going for early Republic and hone up some methods to avoid stagnation in that form of gov.t. By early I mean around 1AD. Allow yourselg HG at first then try without it.

	04-06-2001 22:50									#11
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quote: Originally posted by GP I'm way to lazy to bother with trade routes. The game is quite easy without them. Who needs trades when you've got Fundy...

In SP no problem. In MP you will find your muskets defending against tanks because your opponents will be soooo far ahead technology wise.

paiktis22,
You would be surprised that if you take all those caravans that you used for building wonders and established trade routes, that happiness is not that big of a problem in Republic or Democracy. And you'll have the extra money to rush buy those temples in your newly established cities.

RAH

	05-06-2001 02:13									#12
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I think the bottom line is...What is your end goal? Happiness is can be achieved multiple ways, but those ways are limited depending on your overall game goal (conquest or AC) and the form of government you are and want to be in.

In other words, if it looks like you won't be able to build Mike's and will have trouble keeping the peace, which in turn stunts your tech growth, go to war and rule under one of the governments best suited for that (Commie, Fundie) and your happiness problem is solved.

quote: You would be surprised that if you take all those caravans that you used for building wonders and established trade routes, that happiness is not that big of a problem in Republic or Democracy. And you'll have the extra money to rush buy those temples in your newly established cities.

Yep. But if you are going for conquest, some of those caravans could be troops. Depends on your overall game plan.

Just some thoughts...

	05-06-2001 14:06									#13
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 It's like you MUST have a hapiness wonder (in Emperor or Deity) on order not to prevail but merely to exist.

My 'must have' wonder is Bach's. I usually try to play a warmonger style game while staying in democracy and celebrating WLTxD's. Mike's can be easily replaced by cathedrals, but Bach's effect can't.

	09-06-2001 23:58									#14
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quote: Originally posted by rah You would be surprised that if you take all those caravans that you used for building wonders and established trade routes, that happiness is not that big of a problem in Republic or Democracy. RAH

But we can only have 3 trade routes functioning at the same time. Do you mean keep replacing my existing routes with new commodities like uranium and oil?

I recently started to use the caravans and freights to establish new trade routes again and again. (I usually stoped when all my cities hade the 3 trade routes). I got around 11 trade arrows for each trade route from the new commodities. But I didn't notice anything else that a HUGE boost in techs and money But not much difference in the happiness department.

	12-06-2001 00:40									#15
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paiktis22,

Unless your luxuries are 10% or more, your trade routes won't help your happiness. At 10% or more, a large number of routes should help your happiness. As you noted, re-establishing routes will not increase your happiness.

As a wonder-wimp myself (low % of luxuries, high number of happy wonders) I can't comment on exactly how effective routes are in keeping happiness.

	12-06-2001 20:10									#16
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Without happiness wonders at Deity, the only way to keep any level of happiness is to go commie or fundy, or to raise luxury rates. For the latter, three high continuing rate routes goes a long way toward helping produce enough luxuries to create happy folk to offset the unhappy ones. Therefore, if new high value commodities become available in cities with 1 or 2 gold per turn routes, then by all means build the caravan and send it to a foreign city. That the foreign city actually demands this good is a bonus to this part of the strategy, since it's not the bonus, but the continuing rate that counts. If in Democracy, don't forget those courthouses, either.

All this said by an SP who seldom misses Mike's or Bach's. The above strategy will keep you in the game in SP, but is expensive since you'll need lots of cathedrals and coliseums. Suspect that would be very limiting in the wargame the MP folks play.

	12-06-2001 20:26									#17
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Typical 4 person MP game
One person gets HG
One person gets mics, and then usually jsb unless he belines for invention.
One person gets SOL and goes into communism.
The last person builds a lot of trade routes. (and whines alot )

Granted most everyone is building trade routes, but it's more critical for the fourth. But after playing 100s of games, you're that fourth person enough to realize that while it makes the game more difficult, it's not a reason to quit, there is still plenty of game left.

RAH
If every game was easy, why would we still be playing it after all these years?

	12-06-2001 21:14									#18
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Trade routes between two of your own cities, that are relatively large and connected by roads can yield 4 or 5 arrows per route, I've found this can be very useful, especially if your neighbors aren't kind toward trade routes, going republic will help boost this a lot, problem is if you're playing ICS it is quite hard to support all those units, not so much if its double production.

	12-06-2001 21:30									#19
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rah:
I presume this is in double production, and the person with the trade routes also goes for Shakespeare and Copernicus?

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	12-06-2001 23:55									#20
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yes 2x1x
The observatory yes, after colosus. In fact I was the fourth player the other night, losing my second city the turn it was founded. (Thanks Berz) I actually built the observatory and had not yet discovered writing. Never done that before.
Amazingly enough, Shakes is not a big priority in 2x MP games. If you build a ssc in 2x, happiness is never really a problem because of the high trade, especially after a few caravans. There are many other wonders that will have a bigger impact early on.

Granted if we continued more games, , I'm sure shakes would be built at the begininning of the second session by someone.

RAH

	13-06-2001 00:26									#21
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rah,

Thanks for the insight into MultiPlayer. I've never played before and always wondered how those games went. I imagined a continual conquering and crushing of cities in a bloodbath of chariots and diplomats. Nice to know that some wonders do get built.

	18-06-2001 20:29									#22
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note that this is a matter of playing style.

Understood that early caravans can be as useful for trade routes as for wonders. BUT - that means careful attention to what commodity i build, make sure to send it to demanding city, preferably foreign and far away, and carefully check for changes in commodity demands. For those of us who get bored with micromanagement its so much easier to just build a wonder (what commodity - who cares - coal is fine! no need to check the awkard trade adviser)

LOTM

	18-06-2001 21:06									#23
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lord of the mark, In MP games, we usually play No Alliances. Which means that if you haven't made an "arrangement" most players will not allow you to land that caravan in one of their cities. Unless it's by the sea and you can offload, it doesn't happen. It's fun killing your opponents caravan just outside your city, knowing he wasted 50 shield and many years moving it. Or sinking their loaded ships and destroying 140 shields of production.

RAH

	19-06-2001 05:03									#24
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quote: Originally posted by rah lord of the mark, In MP games, we usually play No Alliances. Which means that if you haven't made an "arrangement" most players will not allow you to land that caravan in one of their cities. Unless it's by the sea and you can offload, it doesn't happen. It's fun killing your opponents caravan just outside your city, knowing he wasted 50 shield and many years moving it. Or sinking their loaded ships and destroying 140 shields of production. RAH

The ferrets speak the truth. Many "arena" games do not have caravan trading so you need to use ships or build internal routes. Republic with maxed luxuries can make up for no happy wonders. After awhile you reduce the luxuries and your fine and you have grown. Most people WLT*D asap in mp. Monarchy just ins't good enough to win consistently anymore...

not unless you run across a mad ics'r

even so he needs to catch the quick growth guyz or he is out of luck......if you let quick growth players get suns your in deep trouble if the guy has a sense of skill.

However it all depends on the rep of your rivals..... rep (right or wrong) decides how you build..... last thing you want as a neighbor is a feisty warmonger with an attitude problem