28-05-2001 22:09									#1
	POLL: For or against Exhausting Resources Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I am dead set against this... Whist I support more realisim, this is taking the game too far and making it more complicated than it should be.

Civ is a war/city management TBS game.
Civ is NOT a resourse management game.

Thus I vote for "Unlimited Resources"

Last edited by DarkCloud on 28-05-2001 at 22:16

	28-05-2001 22:14									#2
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well, there should be a third option, something like "Exhausting has pros and cons, I can't decide"

I can't decide either, therefore I didn't vote. yet.

	28-05-2001 22:38									#3
	Re: POLL: For or against Exhausting Resources Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud I am dead set against this.

DarkCloud; Why do you think that those alternatives must be mutually exclusive? Maybe the resources are simultaneously both excausting and unlimited at the same time.

Ever thought of that!
I quote myself from page 2 in the "Whats with these colonies" thread:

"OK, lets take iron as an example. Lets say the iron-tech uncovers a specific number of iron-resources somewhat unevenly distributed on the world-map. Later, in the medieval era; a certain percentage have already been depleted. But that doesnt necessarily mean that the total number of iron-resources available worldwide have dwindled. Infact, for each iron-mine depleted a new fresh iron-resource suddenly pops up somewhere else on the map. So the total number of any specific resources always stays more or less the same. Im only guessing here, of course - but it seems to be a rather probable guess."

Added comment:

Now, I dont now if its a good idea if a new one pops up directly after a mined one have been depleted. But it will certainly pop up new iron-resources (for example) in conjunction with certain pivotal advancements in the tech-tree (reflecting more effective prospecting). Also; I dont think that they deplete that fast, anyway. Most probably the deplete-rate can be tweaked in the Rules.txt files, no doubt. I say; dont worry.

	28-05-2001 22:40									#4
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i can't decide myself

	29-05-2001 00:05									#5
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Definately against.

	29-05-2001 01:53									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Can you give a few examples where countries or regions have run out of the resources that they used to produce or mine in sizeable quantities? Most shortages are due to blockades that prevent further imports or impede production.

	29-05-2001 02:12									#7
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i have now voted against it, but there should be a toggle.

	29-05-2001 02:54									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Can you give a few examples where countries or regions have run out of the resources that they used to produce or mine in sizeable quantities? Most shortages are due to blockades that prevent further imports or impede production.

One example I can immediately think of is the rich and sizeable copper mining operation in Falun in Sweden that began in the 17th century and ran out in the 20th. I'm sure mines run out and new are dug all the time.

	29-05-2001 03:24									#9
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My vote is for exhausting resources, but not for a LONG time. These icons represent major deposits so should last for quite a while, until possibly the modern age where large scale excavation can exhaust these within decades (e.g. check the oil sands extraction work in Alberta, Canada) - of course, during those times, the extracted amount should be way more as well.

Gamewise, I don't think it makes more micromanagement - it just adds strategy. Many of the worlds conflicts and diplomacy are based on limited resources (eg. the US's pursuit of energy) so this will just make gameplay and diplomacy more interesting. You get a warning that the mine is low and you need to look for more, or look for alternatives.
I think it would be fun, if you were an oil-based economy like the US you'd have to secure your 'middle east' zone.

When the mine runs out, you just have to go find another - and there are plenty around. Perhaps you just pay X amount of gold for an exploration (which is realistic too, geological exploration in MinEx is HUGE business), and another possible mine location pops up in an area. This is the same as Ralf's idea, except I say you should pay for MinEx exploration.

	29-05-2001 03:29									#10
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I am for resources depleating. It seems the reason resources was added to the game was to add conflict and diplomacy and trade between nations. Now, even if you have a secure deposit of iron, if you use too much you will have to explore for more or trade with me. I think it adds an element of strategy to the game as long as the deposits take a long time and build many units before depleating.

	29-05-2001 07:16									#11
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quote: Can you give a few examples where countries or regions have run out of the resources that they used to produce or mine in sizeable quantities?

Easter Island. They eventually cut down all the trees.

No Trees -> No Wood

No Wood -> No Boats

No Boats -> No offshore fishing / No Escape

No offshore fishing / No Escape -> Civ collapse & Starvation.

	29-05-2001 10:01									#12
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I voted for exhausted resources only because I figure that once a resource is used up at one spot it will appear at another spot. Sort of like the barbarians in a way. If they don't reappear somewhere else then I'm against exhausted resources. Maybe somebody at Firaxis could clear this up for us. If they already haven't, I'm not sure.

	29-05-2001 10:45									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Can you give a few examples where countries or regions have run out of the resources that they used to produce or mine in sizeable quantities? Most shortages are due to blockades that prevent further imports or impede production.

Trees are probably the biggest one. The Middle East used to be heavily forested.
World fisheries are in severe decline, and the Mediterranean is almost empty of large schools of fish.
15 years ago scientists were saying that the world only had about 40-50 years of oil left, until new discoveries pushed back that date.

	29-05-2001 15:39									#14
	Remove this text

Exhausting resources, with carefull balancing about how long they last.

I read lot of good example about the effect of Exhausting resources.

I must add that this model:
- force the player to discover and apply new tech (coal was at shortage risk during XIX century, until oil replace it in many use, pushing back the risk of exhausting).
- force player do disband units to reuse theirs resurces (if included in shield recover)
- force player to care of recycling, in late game
- as already mentioned, force player to expand or sign trade pact to develop

Of course it will be silly (from a gameplay point) to be in shortage of iron, if iron is the only metal available to build anything.
I'm not in favour of Ralf proposal

quote: for each iron-mine depleted a new fresh iron-resource suddenly pops up somewhere else on the map. So the total number of any specific resources always stays more or less the same.

I like more that many new tech introduce new way to find and use (or better, efficient use of) resources, e.g. an advance in sea tech help to discover new oil at sea, or an advance in monetary economics help to use more efficienty the gold resource, hence reducing the consume of already know gold mine.

Ok, example are not carefully defined, but you surely get the point.

	29-05-2001 16:31									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

So against.

Talk about micro management of the economy!!!

Just let the civ 111 market sort out supply problems I'm too busy conquering the world.

	29-05-2001 16:40									#16
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quote: Just let the civ 111 market sort out supply problems I'm too busy conquering the world.

CIV 111 ? DID I MISS 3-110 ?

	29-05-2001 22:21									#17
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Calm down, man!

Eli, your avatar sucks big time

	29-05-2001 22:21									#18
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quote: Easter Island. They eventually cut down all the trees. Trees are probably the biggest one. The Middle East used to be heavily forested. World fisheries are in severe decline, and the Mediterranean is almost empty of large schools of fish.

Yes but both of those are replenishable, all that is required is a bit of conservation. Possibly introduced as an advance.

	29-05-2001 23:09									#19
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I'd say it should only be added to the game if some of the resources are non-expendable. Things like wine, wheat, and spice can be smartly harvested to last eternally. Gold, coal, or oil, on the other hand, exist in a fixed quantity. Eventually they run out.

The game could suffer if this isn't kept a minor detail to worry about. If it becomes the focus (i.e. having to plan your game around keeping resources), it might take away from what is good about civ. I think the colony idea might be a good substitute, so I vote no.

	29-05-2001 23:17									#20
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I'm sure firaxis has alerady decided about this matter.
I voted non exhausting resources. Maybe I'm old fashioned