26-05-2000 01:18									#1
	Diplomacy in MGE Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

There has been discussion recently on diplomacy in MGE. It is tough, as I have said (and I will grant that they may had made it too tough and illogical from 2.42). However, learning from the expertise of Sten, it can be done. Here are some highlights using my latest game playing OCC with MGE (English and Chinese are real close neighbors):
4000bc-500bc: numerous tech exchanges and maps, some tributes (generally sending an emissary to one civ every 4 turns - making sure I have little gold before contact)
450bc: English (hostile) - pay 50; send gifts of Iron, Math and Construct; exch WarrCode for Mysticism; (now worshipful) ask for alliance, they accept; ask for gift, they give 150
250bc: English (uncoop) - exch Philosophy for Banking; send gift University; get 100
140ad: English (uncoop) - send gifts Horseback, Medicine, Gravity; get 150
240ad: Chinese (hostile) - give University; send gifts Iron, Medicine, Horseback, WarrCode; (now worshipful) ask for alliance, they accept; get 200
620ad: English - alliance cancelled
820ad: English (uncoop) - give Invention; send gift Democracy; ask for alliance, accept if I make Chinese my enemy; get Physics
1040ad: Chinese (enraged) - give Railroad; cease fire, accept; send gifts Invention, Sanitation, Democracy; offer peace, they accept
1100ad-1800ad: numerous send gift of 1 tech, then get 50-200 in gold (typically every 10 turns or after I spend most of my gold on something)
1800+ad: I get Space Flight, they all want it, I say no, they get really mad, my defenses hold just enough to get a head start on the spaceship, then I give them Space, they offer cease fires/peace, I accept and then ask for gold, they give 200 each time. I'm not done yet, so every further tech I get (like Laser), I have to give it to them just to have them ease off on their bombing raids.

My approach was to stay ahead of them tech-wise by keeping them appeased every so often. They were Uncooperative/Hostile all of the time and getting them to Worshipful, periodically, held them back. With OCC, you just got to be ready towards the end with strong defenses (which I had trouble doing) and be prepared to be in a race to build the parts quicker. Around that time, they will likely come at you with powerful modern units (using all of the tech you gave them) and will force you to give them everything you have so you can stay alive to launch and land.

	26-05-2000 02:06									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Kudos on the OCC win in MGE!

I agree that the AI can be illogical to the nth degree; good job on working around it this time. I do wonder what successful strategies others have used to improve MGE/single-player diplomacy with the AI?

The game is obviously winable without any type of interaction, but I get a high degree of satisfaction out of tricking the AI into helping me win.

Steve - What triggered the alliance collapse in 620ad??

	26-05-2000 02:22									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thank you Sten for your kind words. Your strategy in Fortnight #2 is what I learned from.

In 620ad, I'm not sure what triggered this. All I did were 2 exchanges: I gave them Engineering and Sanitation for Economics and Bridge Building. Then they said they were weary about the alliance. I only had 35 gold so it was either that or they didn't like my engineering standards for the sewer system.

BTW, I sent you an email asking a question (must've have been an old one). In Fortnight #2, from 1040-1590ad, you were able to build an improvement or a unit EVERY single turn. I know you were lucky in getting lots of gold, but how could you afford to build something every turn on an empty production box for hundreds of years?

I, too, would like to hear of other's successful experiences with diplomacy in MGE.

	26-05-2000 03:26									#4
	Put an end to popups!

my hard drive crashed at home and I won't be able to access the karlsson email address, I have a preferred email address listed in my profile - could you forward it there??

	26-05-2000 03:40									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Looking over the log from #2 I noticed that by then my city was size 23 with a factory and hydroplant: maybe I had 50 shield production, that is the only thing that makes sense off the top of my head... I wouldn't have been able to incremental rush build (IRB )that efficiently. IIRC I followed Paul's strategy in that game and planted forests in the rivers.

	26-05-2000 04:39									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If you accrue 4 to 5 techs and give an AI as a gift the same turn it can share map with you. I usually don't ask for alliance since once it is resolved my units will be instantly back home.

	30-05-2000 18:16									#7
	Put an end to popups!

Steve: I'm glad you brought up this topic. During my 4 day Memorial Day weekend, I did a lot of OCCing. I've always wanted to give this challenge a try and I finally had some time on my hands to do it. MGE is the only Civ 2 version I have installed on my PC and found the AI to be just as hostile when you have only one city instead of 20. In one of the OCC games (either #8 or #9) the map is huge and I had great luck in talking sense with these distant civs. I did acquire a lot of free units from huts, so that probably had more to do with the AI's willingness to talk than the distance that separated my civ from the rest.

The diplomacy notes you set forth are great. However, I am reluctant to give away gifts to the AI at any time as I don't want to help them get closer to Space Flight. You stated that there are instances where you even give Space Flight as a gift. I don't think I could ever do that considering that the AI civ that is asking for it is usually the one that is also conquering the other AI civs and has a tech advantage already. Sure, I don't want the AI to attack my 2 defending Riflemen with Bomber, but giving away techs might mean that you don't reach AC first. I'd rather take a turn and build more defenses. An example from my own OCC try on a random map...

The Vikings were taking over the world and were doing so rather quickly. Even though they knew where my Persian capital was, they decided not to attack until Advanced Flight. There were 2 other civs that hated me and attacked with regularity, but their cannons and Knights did no good against my defenses. Well, I tried to talk to the Vikings, but they would have none of it. If I had wanted to give a gift, they would not have even seen me. Then, as I am building my spaceship, the Vikings build 39 structurals and 16 components within 5 turns, and once they discovered superconductor, built 3 modules within 4 turns. Even without Fusion Power their spaceship had a 9 year trip. I lost. If I would have given gifts earlier in the game, I would have lost by an even greater margin.

Granted, I am a new OCC player and probably did a lot of things wrong during the game that could have prevented this, but still…

To wrap up this rambling, two questions about OCC diplomacy using MGE:

1. Does giving techs and gold as gifts really give you an advantage or does it hurt you down the road? Is having an alliance that important if the AI will eventually break it and not talk to you later anyway?

2. Considering that logical diplomacy is non-existent in MGE, should we even bother to use MGE when playing the fortnight competitions? Can we expect that the road taken by 2.42 users will be much easier when competing against one another?

------------------
Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance

	30-05-2000 18:39									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Bohlen,

i don't play with MGE, but from what i gather the best bet is to try and give away 3/4 techs at a time whenever you can to the AI, but never give them gold!!!! you need it too much for rush buying!!

The reason for giving away techs is to reduce your lead (scientifically) so that the advances come quicker to you!!

And from what i understand, you'd be better off playing with 2.42 in occ cause the AI gives you far more gifts than with MGE, you can get 1000's per game!!!! In occ9, i got 4 cash gifts one turn, 300, 250, 250 & 150 (i think...), totalling 950 In ONE TURN?!?!?! great!!!

If anyone knows better please correct me!!!

PS: welcome to OCC Bohlen, good luck with my scenario for occ10!!!
[This message has been edited by Oldman (edited May 30, 2000).]

	31-05-2000 01:28									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Hey - if you like playing OCC in MGE then do it, if you like using 2.42 better, then do that!

I prefer to play it in MGE because I like having to make those decisions: who to ally with, when to give in, when to ally, how to try to keep an alliance, what techs to give away... etc. There is no question that it is a little harder in MGE, but I really didn't think I was going to give Paul much of a run anyway.

Bohlen - part of my rational for giving away techs to the AI is to improve their attitude toward me so I can get cash from them, but the primary reason is to extend their research time on their next technology. The AI doesn't use infrastucture development as well as people do, and when you have the SSC, they just can't compete for science results. Therefore giving them a tech they might otherwise skip, especially early ones, actually slows down their tech development on later, more important techs.

	31-05-2000 20:09									#10
	Tired of ads?

I do the same in Civ2 Single Player.

	31-05-2000 23:26									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

My latest investigations in the Diplomacy thing.


First:
If you play multiplayer the AI will actually be very nice with you. But you HAVE to be
multiplayer! I mean, at least two humans. Just starting a multiplayer session with one
human does not work.

Second:
It looks like the AI will only get mad at you once you have the Contact flag on. If you delete this flag the CPU actually maintains a somewhat reasonable attitude towards you. Too bad that as soon as you start a negotiations or two units get between range, the Contact flag turns on.
In the scenario 2194 days (is the right number?) your allies actually keep good relations with you. You will see, using the cheat menu, that the AI has the Contact flag cleared. How does the author manage to do this? Even though, this is not the solution. It that scenario you can´t negotiate with aother players, which is ok in that context.
What if we want to make a scenario dependable on alliances with the CPU where you can negotiate with them?