01-06-2001 03:53									#1
	HOWIES: tiny change => BIG benefit Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I recall someone mentioned this before, but I want to RESTRESS how big an impact this would make for such a small change.

WEAKER HOWITZERS!

1) I have never lost a single howitzer in any game. THe AI doesn't have the remotest chance of stopping me when my stack of howies RR's through and pounds down half their cities in one turn. They have nothing left to retaliate with and no defensive unit can stop a howie. (On the realism side, for the amount of bombardment this represents, I should be capturing only smoldering ruins, not the bounteous cities I usually get.)

Since there definitely won't be simultaneous turns or limited RR movement, the only thing left ot do is weaken the howies so there's a chance of not steamrolling over the opposition.

2) The second problem besides being unstoppable versus AI, is that I never bother to build anything else but mech inf, engineers, and howies. Bombers have just 1 attack and limited range, fighters aren't as powerful, ships are limited to the coast, ships and choppers have really short range... howies are just the obvious choice.

Weakening howies will make using other units more attractive and useful.

It's such a small change but would have HUGE benefits for fun, gameplay, and realism => way better game!

	01-06-2001 04:14									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I would recommend reducing their movement to one. This would eliminate their ability to run up and attack w/out railroads, and even with railroads they would only get off half the attacks.

	01-06-2001 04:44									#3
	Re: HOWIES: tiny change => BIG benefit Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Captain Since there definitely won't be simultaneous turns or limited RR movement, the only thing left ot do is weaken the howies so there's a chance of not steamrolling over the opposition.

Where did you hear RR's would have unlimited movement??

	01-06-2001 06:39									#4
	Tired of ads?

quote: Where did you hear RR's would have unlimited movement??

i heard the road/rr system wasn't getting any changes in one of the previews

I hope it's not true, but apparently it is

	01-06-2001 08:45									#5
	Tired of ads?

i'm betting the howitzer in civ3 will probably have a high bombardment attack, but not such a high actuall attack. so you can bombard the crap out of cities, but you'll actually have to capture them with marines or something. if bombarding works the same as it did in smac you won't actually be able to kill units with bombarding.

	01-06-2001 09:17									#6
	Armour rules! Increase the size of your Attachments

I always found it odd that armour (tanks) was weaker than howies.

	01-06-2001 09:20									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

how do uknow that thay will have this unit at all!

	02-06-2001 01:19									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I want them to tone down howitzers a bit, but I hope they don't leave the bombardment system the same as in SMAC. I hated artillery because I couldn't actually kill anything with it.

	02-06-2001 02:27									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I hated artillery because it would destroy my best tile improvements (especially boreholes). I think that the AI in CIV III will deliberately target tile improvements like in SMAC. Oh well...

	02-06-2001 04:55									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

i myself liked the bombardment system in ctp

	02-06-2001 05:12									#11
	Got spare money?

Howitzers should still have two movement. But there melee power should be very low and there bombard power high that way they dont just trump through cities on the railroads they have to use a turn bombarding.

	02-06-2001 13:32									#12
	Tired of ads?

quote: Bombers have just 1 attack and limited range, fighters aren't as powerful

Didn't you ever use aircraft carriers or nearby cities to stage air attacks from? Damn, in civ2, i was unstoppable with my german blitzkrieg methods, bomb the **** out of the cities, then take it with ground forces. I could take TONS of cities this way, whilst losing VERY few airplanes, and losing no ground forces at all.

	02-06-2001 14:55									#13
	Re: HOWIES: tiny change => BIG benefit Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Captain Bombers have just 1 attack and limited range, fighters aren't as powerful,

You've obviously never played the "agressive Democrat", hurling waves of veteran stealth fighters at an unsuspecting AI...fighters which btw cause no unhappiness penalty 'cuz they're "defending"...

	06-06-2001 01:35									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Probably outdated thread by now, but I've been away.

The main reasons why howies > air power
1) vet howie is essentially as powerful as vet bomber/vet stealth, but cheaper
2) bomber air units cause unhappiness
3) Also stealth comes much later than robotics, so howies allow me to wage war sooner.
4) I can also make way more howies faster than I can make stealth fighters since they're cheaper (plus, no need for expensive airports)
5) to transport howies across my own empire to the border is easier with RR. I can do it all in one turn from factory to enemy city. With a fighter, I must fly it from city to city til I reach the border - a waste of valuable turns. howies along RR allow instant concentration of power.

for example: under fundy (which is such a cash cow), with twelve mid sized cities, I can go from zero offensive power to dropping 36 howies on my enemy borders within 6 turns (1 per city every 2 turns using incremental rushbuying), and with just one or two more turns, capturing 5 or 6 major enemy cities or 10 smaller ones. (I usually have plenty of engineers anyways, so RRing my way to their capital is easy, and I always have mech inf around, plenty of them to fill in the newly conquered cities).

This is why howies much be weakened!!!!!
The only time I've ever had to use air or sea power is to get the initial beachhead and then transports, howies, &mech inf do the rest. (I'm playing a large, island, deity, ragin hordes, 7 enemy, game now, we'll see how it goes)

To answer the last two posts:
When I play with the rolling attack of howies along enemy RRs, supported by mech inf, I have never lost a single unit! You can't beat that for military results!

I have played the 'aggressive democrat', and howies work better than planes.
RR to enemy gates, pound once, then use next howie, then the next, until no defenders left. Then take the most injured unit, move into city - instant health regained. Then move units into city, pound partisans around city. Units are now all inside cities or fortresses defended by vet mech inf. No unhappy effects. No lost units. I can usually continue this for at least four or five cities before I run out of mvt points with just over 30 howies. This is a small army but I am impatient (usually by end of war four or five turns later, I have 50-60 howies - the next empire falls pretty damn quick).

But even better, when playing fundy or with my luxuries at 30-40% under democracy, I can take at least ten cities without unhappy worries.

The only time I use air units are using bombers to blockade routes for those civs I know who don't have flight.

(*I should note that I also use engineers alot, to build fortresses and RRs everywhere, but that's cuz I'm a "builder" type player)

	06-06-2001 03:22									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

True. The Howitzer is a super-unit which practically makes all other attack units obsolete.

The Civ 2 manual said between the lines, that Civ 2 shouldn't have that much of the super-stuff in Civ 1 - like the Super-Wonder Pyramids or the Super-Govt Democracy. They failed again. All units, wonders and govts should be useful some time in the game - at least if they were in real history.

	06-06-2001 09:36									#16
	Remove this text

Balance is the key issue here. The simplest method of weakening howitzters is to weaken railroad.

If some how the game refused to let enemys use YOUR railroad, it would be much better. Or perhaps you can only leave a railroad at a city. Not that this is much more realistic. Railroads are simply too powerful in civ2. Especially considering how little we use them now.