01-06-2001 18:57									#1
	Tech cost v. Tech trading Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Hello everyone!

I am somewhat new to the Apolyton community. I have been lurking for awhile and reading all the great topics here. I am now starting to be involved in some Apolyton games and I am very much enjoying my experience here. Congratulations to everyone for building such a great community.

I am starting to get a good feel for the many layers of SMAC/X (although there is so much more for me still to learn).

One area I am having a little difficulty understanding is the idea of tech costs. Please excuse me if there has been a previous thread on this, I just couldn't seem to find one. I also looked through Vel's guide and couldn't find any specific mention of this (but I could have easily looked over it with all the great stuff in The Guide).

So, my query is this: Is it better to trade for all the techs you can or should you limit the techs you trade for to those along a wanted tech path?

Specifically, I was fortunate enough in my past game to have the University as a Pact brother and I could go to him from time to time to negotiate techs. So, is it better for me to get all the techs I can trade for and buy as soon as possible? Or will accepting techs slow my tech discovery rate down too much if I am on a specific path (for example) to Air Power, Ind. Automation or Env. Economics?

In the past, I have usually tried to grab as many techs as possible any way I can get them, but I am wondering if that is wise.

Any thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Last edited by Qantaga on 01-06-2001 at 19:49

	01-06-2001 21:28									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Every tech you obtain will increase the tech cost of the NEXT tech you research and NOT the one you are researching now. It seems the game calculates tech cost when you start researching a tech and does not change this as more are accumulated BUT will factor in your total number of techs when "starting" the next tech. It does appear that you get a "free" switch to another tech ( with no increase in cost) if you can trade for the one you are currently researching. I have done this several times successfully.

The result is that it is often best to avoid obtaining less crucial techs as they will slow obtaining more crucial ones. Often I will defer trading for a "good" tech until I have actually started research on the one I view as "crucial". Beelining and avoiding extra tech can really speed the path to your key targets.

This has been my experience. I can tell you that you see quite a change in your turns/tech upon commencement of research of your next goal after doing multiple trades. It can be a huge difference as accepting extra techs can delay researching something like IND AUTO for 10 or 20 years

	01-06-2001 23:16									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

cbn, thank you so much.

That was the piece I was missing. I knew that trading affected my tech rate, but I couldn't figure out exactly how, since sometimes the rate appeared to be unchanged after trades. With your explanation that it factors in tech cost when "starting" the next tech, I can finally come to terms with the implications of trading.

I really appreciate your reply.

	02-06-2001 10:41									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This is very good advice from cbn. I think you're playing in a team game currently, so it might be worth adding one little tip:

When you want to make a trade for a tech you need for your beeline, wait until you make a breakthrough and then switch to the tech you're about to trade for. Accept the trade, and choose the next tech to research.

By delaying one turn to trade, you keep your tech cost down.



I've just read this and it doesn't seem clear, so here's an example:

You are the PKs, with Biogen, and your partner is the Believers, with Soc Psych. You choose Centauri Ecology for your first tech, and decide to try for Secrets of the Human Brain afterwards. You can either:

(1) trade immediately, then choose SotHB after your Cent Eco breakthrough or

(2) wait for Cent Eco, start researching Soc Psych, then trade and switch to SotHB free of charge.

If you do (1) SotHB is charged at the price for your 4th tech. If you do (2), SotHB is charged at the price for your 3rd tech. In either case, the tech you research after SotHB will be charged at the price for your 6th tech (because your 5th tech is free if you get there first!)

So it is really worth paying attention to how you trade, and when.

	02-06-2001 18:22									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Misotu,

Thanks a lot for the advice.

Team game....hmm...now, why did I want to make sure that I understand this concept, again?

Your suggestion is very much appreciated, because I am not sure that I would have made the leap to start researching the one I am about to receive in the trade. I probably would have chosen a different tech to research, knowing that I was about to trade for the other tech anyway.

I can see now how that would present the opportunity for an additional (maybe higher level) tech by choosing the one you are about to get.

I am grateful for your help.

Last edited by Qantaga on 02-06-2001 at 19:58

	03-06-2001 06:22									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

You are very welcome

As an aside, don't worry about tech levels. I know some people value techs this way, but actually it's misleading. Some low-level techs are worth far more than higher-level ones. Compare, for example, Ind Automation (3) to Bioadaptive Res (4) or even Sentient Econometrics (11). Env Eco (only level 5) is one of the most valuable techs in the game because it unleashes your empire's energy *and* makes serious pop booms viable.

How you value each tech will depend on your playing style, to a certain extent. Techs can be valuable either because of what they do, per se, or where they lead. Certain techs can suddenly become highly valuable given unusual circumstances (what price SotHB, for trance, when you are playing on a high fungus, lots of native life world? )

See you in one of the next Builder-Momentum games

	03-06-2001 21:08									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Misotu,

Thanks yet again.

Your point is well taken. I guess I should really start referring to "more valuable" techs rather than "higher level" techs.

I am looking forward to playing a Builder/Momentum game with you and Garth. There is certainly no better way to learn and improve at this game than at the feet of the Masters.

	03-06-2001 23:45									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well, Misotu, it seems as if you have started the wheels turning in my mind (which is rather dangerous since it has probably been many years since those particular wheels have been in motion).

To help me clarify, is the cost of the tech based on the number of techs you have before you start researching the new tech, regardless of the level of the tech?

As an example, let's say that I am playing as the University. I take CE as my free starting tech, I research Biogenetics, then Soc.Psych, then SotHB. I then take Centauri Empathy (level 3) as my free tech. Since I started with Info.Networks, that gives me a total of 6 techs.

As my next research choice, I am offered many, but the two I am interested in (in this example) are Ind.Base (level 1) and Planetary Networks (level 2).

My question is, would my tech cost be the same for Ind.Base or Plan.Networks since either one would be my seventh technology? Or would it be a higher tech cost to choose Plan.Networks (instead of Ind.Base) since it is a level 2 tech?

As an extra question, does the fact that I now have Cent.Empathy (level 3) in my arsenal add to my tech cost more than if my free tech choice had been a level 1 or 2 tech?

Thanks for your, and cbn's, patience and kindness in helping me understand this area of the game.

Last edited by Qantaga on 04-06-2001 at 00:39

	04-06-2001 03:22									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Qantaga, yes, this is exactly right. A tech is a tech and will cost exactly the same, no matter whether you choose to research a level 1 or a level 13 tech next, in my experience.

So, in your example, either Ind Base or Plan Nets will cost the same. And in your second example, it doesn't matter what level of tech you choose for your free tech (as far as I am aware).

I should add a caveat here though: I haven't examined whether tech level might affect tech cost in a direct sense, but I have peripheral evidence to suggest that it does not (ie factions with different techs, but the same number of techs, have the same tech cost). Also, I am absolutely certain that if tech level affected tech cost, I would have seen posts to this effect. I've been around this board for a while, reading posts by the likes of Vel, Zso, Ogie and Tau amongst others, and I've even teamed with Vel once - none of them have ever suggested such a consideration. So it's all sort of negative, rather than positive, evidence, but I'm pretty sure. If you want to be *certain* - test it in the scenario editor, and then you'll know.

In any event, the value of a tech, in the sense of what it gives you, is so overriding as to make such considerations almost irrelevant except in the rare case where two techs are equally desirable, but one is a higher level than the other. I cannot swear that it makes no difference, but I am 99% sure that this is the case.

What I can say is that if you minimise the number of techs in the bag before you embark on a new research project, your tech cost will certainly be lower. Beelining is always more effective than just acquiring random techs.

And finally ... ... if you want to learn at the feet of a master, then you should choose another guru. I'm afraid that I'm pretty middling really - last season I played 6 and won 3. There are a few players around here who would hand me my butt on a platter (and have done so).

Sad, but true (sob!)

	04-06-2001 06:56									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

IIRC, the University's free tech, (and info networks) do not count against the tech total for determining the research cost. This is actually a sizable research bonus throughout the game, as in effect every tech is discounted.

	04-06-2001 07:09									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Misotu,

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this so clearly. I think I have achieved total conciousness on this issue (oh no, wait, that was the gift the Dalai Lama gave Bill Murray's character in Caddyshack )

I do have a much better understanding now.

quote: Misotu writes: In any event, the value of a tech, in the sense of what it gives you, is so overriding as to make such considerations almost irrelevant except in the rare case where two techs are equally desirable, but one is a higher level than the other.

Now, before you start thinking that I am totally clueless on SMAC/X (which actually may be the case when compared to the level of talent around here), I really would never base a tech choice on its level or its cost. I do at least try to make the choices to best benefit the faction I am playing. It's just that I started thinking about this (as you wisely guessed because of your new team game series) and I have one of those silly minds that likes to work an issue down to its very core to try to understand all of its nuances.

My latest post was very much theoretical to try to understand the mechanics of tech costing within the game. So, please don't throw me out of the Builder/Momentum games on my ear.

I really do appreciate your taking the time to indulge my questions.

Finally, I believe that you calling yourself a "middling" player is sort of like saying that Einstein had an "adequate" understanding of science. I will be more than happy to take any pearls of wisdom you might want to cast my way.

	04-06-2001 07:14									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Sikander, thanks for your post as well. It arrived while I was composing my last post. I did not realize that those first two techs of the University did not count against tech cost.