01-06-2000 16:57									#1
	Pros & Cons of Giving Techs to the AI Increase the size of your Attachments

I hope it's okay to quote someone else's post in a new thread, because I didn't want to go too far off topic in the previous one.

In the MGE diplomacy thread, Sten Sture said:
"...the primary reason [for giving techs to the AI] is to extend their research time on their next technology. The AI doesn't use infrastucture development as well as people do, and when you have the SSC, they just can't compete for science results. Therefore giving them a tech they might otherwise skip, especially early ones, actually slows down their tech development on later, more important techs."

I've seen similar reasoning from other people, but Sten's got me thinking hard about this philosophy. Is it really valid?
I'm not talking about OCC here. The reasons for giving techs are a little different there. I'm asking about standard SP games.

On the one hand, it makes sense: give them "lesser" techs to slow down their progress on "better" techs.

On the other hand, there are three possible flaws:
1. You can't always choose what tech to give; when you offer a gift, your options are limited. So maybe they get a desirable tech.
2. Even a lesser tech is usually a prerequisite to a better one, so a small gift early can end up helping them reach an important goal later.
3. While it's true that giving them techs slows down progress on subsequent techs, it (obviously) speeds up their acquisition of the techs you give them. Unless you can be sure you only give them techs they wouldn't have researched, isn't it possible that you're helping them more than hurting?

Sten, I'm not impuning your reasoning. You may well be right. I just can't sort out the implications clearly enough to be sure. I'd like to hear the group's opinions on this.

	01-06-2000 19:18									#2
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In regular SP mode, I try never to "give" the AI anything. I might trade with them if they offer something I really want, and I'm not asked to give up something I don't want them to have yet (like a wonder I'm building or gunpowder)

The ONLY time I will give one away is if by some slim chance, they catch me with my pants down on defense, and I want to stall them a for a while so I can remedy whatever tactical error I made.

As far as giving them sciences to "slow" them down... I don't see the point of it. Once you are the best, they are all going to ally against you anyway, and give each other every little tech in the world. This occurs later in the game... so if it does indeed slow them down, this is when I want it to happen

	01-06-2000 20:55									#3
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[EvC mode]WHAT IS THIS HERESY??? ARE YOU IMPUNING MY REASONING???[/EvC mode]

Ming's points are of course entirely valid, I just play a different style in SP.

Like everything else, my giving techs away to the AI depends on the tactical situation. The way I play SP in the MGE version (I have 2.42, but I never even play SP on it) is usually to try to keep all of the AI civs balanced and as much at war with each other as possible while I develop my infrastructure. It seems to me that my having a large tech advantage encourages hostility from the AI. Now I've played enough not to be overly concerned with the AI's Iranian military tactics, but I don't want them bothering me unless I dictate the time and arena. By preventing them from trading techs among themselves by being the providor, I have found that it extends their own petty inter-AI wars. That may be my imagination, but I overemphasize giving things to the AI partially to encourage a line of thinking that deviates from the conventional wisdom that Ming posted.

Let's think about some examples...

If there is a large-ish civ researching Monarchy, and I want to keep them from it for a while, I may give them Map Making, the Wheel, Bridge Building, Writing, Pottery, and Construction. The effect of this is to push back the research time for Monarchy for them.

On the other hand, if they are smaller and under threat from a neighbor, I may give them Monarchy and Bronze working to improve their defensive capabilities.

If an aggressive civ is in my neck of the woods, I may give them perfectionist advances like Republic (what is funnier than the Mongols trying to sustain all out war in early rep) or Medicine or really anything non-military.

If an AI is researching a tech that will give them Wonder access that I want to build, I might give them several techs.

If there is parity among the civs, I might give them all gunpowder. I know that I won't have any trouble capturing cities defended with a couple of muskets, but the AI sure will.

When you go to gift an AI techs you have a choice of two that they would like, I never worry about which one they prefer, and either give them the one I want, or if that is not one of the available choices, I say "nevermind."

Happy civing... but don't be afraid of the AI.

	01-06-2000 22:15									#4
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Sten: Superb reasonings as usual. For me, it comes down to whether it's AC or bloodlust (SP of course). In the latter, I tend to follow Ming's approach somewhat where the key is to quickly have superior attack units. By constantly harrassing and eventually clobbering nearby civs, they will slow their science down to concentrate on shields and gold. Alternatively, in the few AC games that I have played, I agree and have done some of the things on your list for the reasons you stated. And yes, I do give them Space Flight only when 1) I have built at least 6 SS and 2) I want them to stop sending their Bombers at my One-City. I have found, at least in my last game, that that is enough of a head start on the ship and that they will slow down production of attack units.

To add to your list, I tend to give techs away AFTER I have built the associated wonder. Theology, Medicine and Literacy comes to mind for those only have a Wonder, no other improvements or units. This is also true for Philosophy where no one can get an extra advance after I have discovered it first. Railroad is another one that works on two levels: 1) Darwin's is useless for anyone else and 2) allowing them to build railroads will eventually benefit me more than them. Overall, if I'm in bloodlust, I will do anything to steer them away from the military wonders/improvements/units.

	01-06-2000 22:15									#5
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Well SS, we can agree on one thing... Never be afraid of the AI.
I never worry about what the AI is doing.
If they want to fight with each other, fine by me. I've never really seen a need to get involved. If I take care of my own business, what the AI does is irrelevent
Now, there have been a few OCC games...

	01-06-2000 23:06									#6
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Iranian Military Tactics

(at the Iranian West Point)

Prof: see that machine gun nest? you're all going to charge it.

student: what kind of a strategy is that?!

Prof: (smack) Quiet! Insallah, they will run out of bullets before we run out of soldiers!

	01-06-2000 23:35									#7
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If you're a compulsive micromanager and going for a "fastest" style game, the AIs can help you out with your research. This is particularly easy if you have Marco Polo's Embassy. Use the intelligence screen to determine what each AI is researching. If it's a tech you already have, give it to them. Eventually, some AI will discover a tech you don't have; trade, beg, or steal it, give it away if necessary, and continue the cycle.

At some point (about Automobile, maybe), you'll want to stop doing this to keep the AIs from having really good techs. But you can really speed up your research in the mid-game this way. You're turning the AIs' research handicap to your advantage, as well as having the potential to have 7 civs researching techs for you at the same time.

	02-06-2000 00:13									#8
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i think the biggest reason to give away techs early or to trade period with the ai, is for me to find where everyone is, and to determine who is weak and who is mighty, after all, i am always supreme. Trading of caravans is what maps are for for me on the economic front, while also helping me plan my great military conquests. I find the earlier i make contact with the ai the easier it is to get maps from them. This is why i used to rely on Marco Polos so much in my early civing days.... now i have learned to play without it.

I try not to get involved in AI wars, but when my trading partners are continuosly under attack, well you know how it is.....
if my economic ally should become too much of a pain, well you know how it is....
if i am having a tyrannical sort of evening, well you know how it is... etc.....

partnerships last as long as i need them, and i am very reluctant to give anyone much of anything unless its early in the game and i already have Monarchy and this goes for AC or bloodlust.

While giving tech does hamper the ai research, it does inevitably give them more tech than they already had. Therefore i only see it worthy if you are trying to prevent them from researching specific techs at specific times

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Improvements and wonders are just big bullseyes for the conqueror.... and i like to think of myself as Robin Hood

	02-06-2000 01:16									#9
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Hmmm, we have to watch this Sten guy carefully. He suggests the 'primary reason' to give the AI science is to hamper their science development. But he might just be emphasizing another and newly discovered way to interfere in the AI's internal affairs--surely his main goal

Sten was the one that first suggested to me the idea of giving Construction and Sanitation to the AI to help them grow and thus increase one's trade routes with their growing cities....he's an insidious character.

I like giving away tech to form alliances but Sten's cat and mouse game with the AI is probably worthy. Hey Sten do you play MP diplomacy games

AU

	02-06-2000 03:12									#10
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Aurelius - LoL! It is all probably running in place, but it makes the game more interesting to me... sort of a SP Diplomacy game using MGE - now there's a set of contradictions.

Actually, I haven't had regular time to play MP since the fall, but there is a rumor that I may start-up Wednesday evenings soon.

(welcome back from the wrong coast, we missed you around here.)

	02-06-2000 03:45									#11
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Give? that word is not in my civ2 dictionary

The AI research rates aren't based on any real calculation IMHO. When you are doing good in Democracy, they are doing good- even if still in Monarchy. And they trade with each other any way. I'll trade lesser techs until gunpowder. I never trade away gunpowder. I do trade (sometimes give to the weaker ones) away railroad (as long as I can get Darwin built first) just so they will build them and make conquest eaiser.
[This message has been edited by Black Bart (edited June 01, 2000).]

	02-06-2000 05:29									#13
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giving techs can/will lower your research time

	02-06-2000 09:31									#14
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those damn quotes, doh!

	03-06-2000 11:30									#15
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In OCC I give the A/I whatever it wants. In multiplayer civ I only trade techs with the A/I. I figure why not? If I don't the other person will!

	03-06-2000 11:58									#16
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Everyone:

I'm a tightwad and badass when it comes to the technology tree. Ya want some of my technology, AI?! BITE ME.

About the only time I willing trade techs is when the AI has something I *need.* And, believe it or not, that situation does pop up now-and-again. If that isn't the case, the only way the AI gets tech from me is by declaring war.

Which really isn't a good idea. On the outside, I'm a pacifistic, scientific society. But on the inside is a *raging* fanatic who will one day use his scientific edge on the AIs to utterly CRUSH THEM UNDERFOOT!!!!!!!

MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Say, I think it's time to go and wipe the table with those pissant Romans. Then the Amazons. And last, but not least, a showdown with the Sioux Empire.

CYBERAmazon

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Resistance is futile. Lower your shields and disable your weapons. You will be assimilated into the Borg Collective.

	05-06-2000 18:29									#17
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Especially when I am far ahead in the game, I will try and tailor the AI's to become better trading partners. I'll give them various non-military techs (well not not initially military techs) and sometimes even irrigate and railroad around certain cities to get them to grow. Depending on my moods, i might even teraform a hill or 2 into a nice productive farmland plains or grasslands - can't let them build up their military lest they get cocky

	05-06-2000 18:44									#18
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One thing I have noticed: if your engineers are busily making improvements on their territory (including building a railroad from the coast to their capital-heh heh) they are much less likely to be veiwed with hostility. Engineers that are "just passing through" unescorted tend to be the targets of treaty activations and sneak attacks. The same engineers, making improvements as they move, tend to be left alone.

BTW, I play at King level, mainly because I find the unhappiness problems of higher levels more "annoying" than "challenging"; to balance this lower level, I tend to give the AIs all the tech I can, at least up to railroad/explosives/refrigeration.

	05-06-2000 18:53									#19
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Count me in with the "BITE ME" crowd. If they have a tech that I want, I will wait for them to offer it for peace or a cease fire. They will eventually.

RAH

	06-06-2000 07:28									#20
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I concur, the only way I give up a tech is in the smoldering ruins of my capital...

Venger

	06-06-2000 08:12									#21
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Campo, et al.:

**contented sigh** Whelp, just cleaned the table with the Roman Empire. Gosh, they got nice BIG cities — all conveniently mine, now. Boy, ya should've heard the caesar screeching when I overran the last of his "insta-capitals."

Damn Amazon Empire. Little freaks didn't connect all their cities will railroads. Buttheads. Those women are aggressive! Broke treaty after treaty! Boy, was I satisfied after flushing the toilet with them. Not many big cities, though ... them and their "live with nature" attitude.

The Sioux were fun. I landed 64 divisions of armor and howitzers on their soil ... and had to reinforce that with another 24 divisions in order to fully break their empire into tiny, scattered pieces. Am now mopping up ... well over a dozen size 20+ cities now under Egyptian dominion. Oh, yeah.

All accomplished without sharing technology with the AI, which was doing just fine on its own. **snort** Bastard Sioux blasted six of my howitzer divisions into oblivion on their initial counterstrike ... but the AI Sioux, being dumb butts, offered a peace treaty after reclaiming only one of their cities. And I accepted.

Then fortified and strengthened my significant presence in the Sioux heartland. Then I conquered the rest of their main cities.

CYBERAmazon (the one who doesn't share technology)

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	06-06-2000 11:19									#22
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I always give the AI techs. I give them techs to get maps. I almost always trade in other circumstance, unless I'm building a wonder or solely hold a decisive military tech. Why? Saves me a lot of time. I assume I can always make better use of the techs I get than the AI can of the techs I give. This approach can really get you up the tech tree rapidly, especially if you can trade with several civs.

Its interesting to read the different approaches.

	07-06-2000 18:57									#23
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While I try not to give away techs, I will trade them.

Sometimes I want to deliver a caravan to an inland city and the AI civilizations will make a nasty comment. Rather than risk losing the caravan I'll usually give in to the demands.

I usually won't trade techs that will allow the AI to start a wonder I want to build. Other than that I'm inclined to trade. Sometimes it's hard to get the chance to work on an advance like Astronomy. If some AI civilizations gets it especially early Coperinicus can be gone before the human player gets a chance to build it.

	07-06-2000 20:00									#24
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I never give the AI anything. I refuse to pamper them with gifts to raise their attitude towards me.
Trading tech is an entirely different matter. I love the role of 'tech-broker', me trading techs from one Civ to the next. It saves a lot of time. I'll try to let the AI scrollheads supply me with all the necessary technology, while I concentrate on building some cold hard steel in the meantime.

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	08-06-2000 17:40									#25
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Being a tech broker can be fun. If you see that a civ is developing a science you have, that nobody else has, it's always great to trade it to other civs so you can fill in a few of those sciences you don't have yet. Heck, you might as well get something for it since the AI will trade it the minute it gets it anyway

	08-06-2000 18:28									#26
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In the old days when there was still doubt if I could beat the AI I loved to trade lots of tech. If you would research stuff the AI placed on a low priority you could get loads of other tech in exchange. I would first trade with the most advanced AI for something the other AIs didn't have and then to the next advanced AI and so on. I would sometimes get something like 10 techs for my one tech.

Of course now the AI won't ever get so far ahead that they have 10 techs that I don't have but it used to be fun at the time.

	08-06-2000 19:38									#27
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There's lots of good discussion here. For my style of Single Player play, I can summarize as follows:

Bloodlust/Larger Maps - I don't give anyone, anything; reputation be d***ed. No reason for alliances, keeping others happy, etc. There are only two cases where I would trade. One, if I were to get a tech that I need for something that would have no impact on me. The other is where I need to get a short infusion of cash, particularly to rushbuild a wonder.

Bloodlust/Smaller Maps - A little more trickier. If there is a neighboring civ that you can't destroy early on, you made need to coddle them a little just to buy time.

AC/All Maps - The only goal is to launch and land a spaceship. That requires getting all of the desired techs ASAP. Trading especially works since you don't need all of the techs and associated wonders. With a number of cities building caravans and military units, you can hold off enemy civs while staying ahead.

OCC/AC - As in all AC games, the goal is to launch and land. With only ONE vunerable city, you got to keep others away, esp. if you have nearby civs on a small map. I think the key is to get to Space Flight first and start building those parts. Therefore, do anything to keep other pacified - give/trade/gifts/ally/etc. Anytime you have to stop and build defensive units will slow you down. Anytime you have enemy units sitting on city squares will slow you down. Anytime you have bombers and howitzers attacking your one city will slow you down.

OCC/Bloodlust - Don't know about that yet.

Just my ramblings for the morning.