06-06-2001 02:36									#1
	Ancient Times in Civilization Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I was reading in another thread (forgotten which one), but it listed a few problems, and one was how fast the early stages of the game go by. Well, i thought I would do another thread, this one on that specific topic.

It is rediculous, that during the early stages of the game, meaning, ancient times, have to go so fast, I literally press SPACE BAR and ENTER (or RETURN) more then I play the actual game, again I say, Its rediculous!

It is a fact that humans have existed for now 6 melleniums (6 thousand years), and 4 out those 6 have taken place in B.C., yet when I play civilization, I go through it as fast as I would about 10 years in modern times!

Firaxis, this has got to change, the ancient era of civilizations is my favorite time (first is middle ages), and I wish to be able to enjoy it in civ3, in stead of rushing through it!

Well, thats all I have, anyone else have any comments?

	06-06-2001 03:09									#2
	Agreed! More ancient gameplay! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I agree. In a small map game, the time after 1850 AD makes about half of the turns. There is a lot more action in the late game, which makes it take even longer time.

Well, now I can expect the comment "If you want realism"... Shall we abbreviate that one IYWRPTTAD?

I am a realist, and I believe things can be done to make more out of the pre-industrial era. A radical idea could be to make all turns ten years before 1800 - five years after. To make this work, one could:
* make the default starting date 3000 BC
* reform movement system, so that exploring costs movement points
* insert realism by allowing a significant science/production boom in modern ages
* have more ancient techs, units and wonders
* increase the travel time to AC (or equivalent winning condition)

	06-06-2001 03:47									#3
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If they make the game to long, there will be the bunch of guys yelling their heads off. If they make the game to fast, there will be a bunch of guys yelling their heads off.
I'll said this a bunch of times, Firaxis can not win, no matter what they do someone will yell about it.
Yes it would be nice if the old days took a little longer. Something in Civ 2 depending on how you manage/make discovery, you can sometime build Musketeers before you can build Pikeman.
In CTP 2 w/WesW Mod the Ancient, and Middle ages are now quite long in term of game play. It take awhile to get through them.

	06-06-2001 03:55									#4
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Boo! Hiss!


I am in great opposition to your views. The early part of the game (pre-Musketeer era) is VERY boring.
Like any good arguer, i'll give my reasons for my dislike of this part of the game:

- The Units are horrible. Slow moving, Low attack, slow to produce, many(in Civ2, i cant say this for Civ3) had bad graphics, some become obsolete in several turns, some have no function or use.
- No Diplomacy!
- No Strategy (Small number of cities/explored land/techs available)
- I cant build bridges
- No Economy
- Limited Naval 'Stuff'
- Huge waiting times (to irrigate, build mine, etc)
- Aquetducts

The only thing the early game has going for it is the small amount of micromanagement.

I guess the arguement is: Do we (the gaming community) want Civ3 to be a Story/Cinematic Game, or a game full of goals.
An example of a Story/Cinematic game is Europa Universalis, or Tropico, or SimCity/The Sims, were you can play some game, and tell good stories to your friends who play the game.
Example of a game full of goals would be: Age of Empires, (any RTS actually), First person shooters, Mario Bros.

I want Civ2 to be a Story/Cinematic game. When losing isnt as bad as it seems, its the stories that come from, the game that count, but I dont think the Early game (Pre-Musketeer era) has that ability.

	06-06-2001 04:10									#5
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If you don't like the early game for those reasons, why don't think up ways to give it more action?

Diplomacy - IMO the map should be littered by civs in the beginning. You would not feel alone.

Strategy - you should be able to choose between a peaceful/warmongering path earlier in the game.

Economy - those Special Resources will affect even the early game.

Ships - I would really like improvements here! Ships should be earlier, faster and cheaper. From bronze age until railroads, ships should be the preferred means of transportation for coastal civs. If I get my hands on Civ 3, I will promise to make a modpack that favours sailing.

	06-06-2001 04:55									#6
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Part of the problem is that you start out with minimal things to do in the beginning - a settler and that's about it. You have to build from that point.

If you want to make the Ancient Age more important, then you need to fill out the tech tree with more advances, more units and more improvements. Simply stretching out the length of time from advance to advance will not ease the boredom, because you then have limited choices in what to build

Personally, I find the early game more interesting than the latter game, because if you manage your empire correctly, you never need to play out the Modern Age.

	06-06-2001 20:13									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Sheesh. If you want to make the Ancient Age (or whatever Age you prefer) longer with shorter time increments and an expanded tech tree, then build or play a scenario. Why do some folks here in this forum have no clue as to the power of scenarios and expect the main game to be everything?

The main game will and should be purposely vanilla. That will allow for creation of Ancient [or fill in the blank] Age scenarios with time going by month by month (if you wish) and a complete remake of the tech tree with every single unit and terrain customized (like what Kull did with his Ancient Age civ2 scenarios).

Why even bring up scenario-specific features for the main game?

end of

	06-06-2001 21:11									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'd be all for a 'fast start' option where your two starting settlers will create size 4 cities already containing temple, market place, granary and 1 pikeman. That cuts 60+ turns of tedium out of the beginning of the game right there even if you still have to research the techs to build those buildings and units anywhere else.

The early game diplomatic void can be filled in a number of ways. Minor nations were a big hope for a while but I'm beginning to worry that FIRAXIS have gone more for making the world a smaller place instead.

	06-06-2001 21:49									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by hexagonian Personally, I find the early game more interesting than the latter game, because if you manage your empire correctly, you never need to play out the Modern Age.

Amen to that!

	06-06-2001 21:55									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It's been awhile since I've played Civ2 (Diablo2 is my current interest) but I seem to remember that it had an accelerated startup option where you started with a few cities and advances. I'm sure that a similar option could be implemented into CivIII. However, would it be worth it? I know that if the option did exist in Civ2, I never used it, and probably because I never trusted the AI to put my cities where I wanted them. I am, afterall, approximately ten million, seven hundred sixty-five thousand, three hundred and two point seven times more intelligent than my computer.

Hold on please....
muffled scraping and fighting sounds in the background.... "get back in there".... "no I won't".... "I said, GET BACK IN THERE".... "ouch, stop, wait".... SLAM

Okay, I'm back. I had to take the egotistical side of me and put it back in it's place.

	06-06-2001 22:35									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Two things to say


First - Hey meriadoc, i live real close to you! Like a 2 minute drive! Thats neat.


Second - I'm all for making the Ancient (beging) time of Civ3 more fun. Its kinda like a see-saw, Begining of game, nothing to do 'cept press enter. End game, TOO much to do!

quote: Personally, I find the early game more interesting than the latter game, because if you manage your empire correctly, you never need to play out the Modern Age

I agree that a correctly managed empire early on can help later on in the game and making it easier to win, but its still not fun.

	07-06-2001 01:07									#12
	Re: Ancient Times in Civilization Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto It is a fact that humans have existed for now 6 melleniums (6 thousand years)

Unless you believe a certain religion to the letter of it's generic holy text(s) or you have a very unorthodox alternate view on the origin of humans, the number is closer to 30 000 years. I'm not challenging religious beliefs or anything, but that's the number that evolutionists go by right now.

	07-06-2001 01:57									#13
	Re: Re: Ancient Times in Civilization Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Your.Master Unless you believe a certain religion to the letter of it's generic holy text(s) or you have a very unorthodox alternate view on the origin of humans, the number is closer to 30 000 years. I'm not challenging religious beliefs or anything, but that's the number that evolutionists go by right now.

I am not an evolutionist, I am christian, I dont want to start another argument again about humans and how they originated, so I wont say anything except that I said 6 thousand years because that is what I believe, and I hope that every other christian does too, since that is what the bible teaches.

	07-06-2001 02:01									#14
	Ways to make it funner Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Here are at 3 easy ways to make ancient times (the beginning stages of the game) longer, and hopefully more enjoyable:

1. Enlargen the early stages of the tech tree.

2. shorten the years per turn from 20 to 15 or 10.

3. add more ancient units.

	07-06-2001 14:45									#15
	Suffering from ads?

That on its own doesn't help if you still start with 1 settler and have to develop your first city which takes 10+ turns to produce anything. You still hit end turn over and over with - if you are lucky - one or two exploring units to move each time. To improve the beginning you need to begin with one or more developed cities while retaining the ability to pick for yourself the site they start on.

	07-06-2001 14:54									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

I don't think there is any real way to fix this. I mean during the dawn of civilization peole did not instantly start out with a city that was producing large quantities of information and materials. It took time for them to build up, just as in the game. I know that it makes for a slow ancient period, but perhaps it would make it better if the turns were to be shortened from 20 to 15 or 10 years. This would allow the realism to remain while giving you more time in the Ancient era. This would make the game longer, unless you wanted to reduce the number of turns that existed in the Middle ages and the periods that exist in the middle of the game. Just some food for thought!

	07-06-2001 15:00									#17
	Tired of ads?

There were (precluding religious assertions to the contrary) significant ancient civilisations long into the past and people want to recreate that feeling. Still, if you did not like the idea of big cities at the start then beginning with 4 settlers would still shorten the early empty turn syndrome a bit.

	08-06-2001 00:16									#18
	Re: Re: Re: Ancient Times in Civilization Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto I am not an evolutionist, I am christian

It's interesting that this "Diablo" fellow is Christian. It's also interesting that his profile states that he "like to kill heros" and that his occupation is that of "Assasin". I find it very hard to take 13 year-olds with bad spelling skills, whacko religious beliefs and an unhealthy appetite for Diablo II very seriously. I also doubt that he actually lives in Salt Lake City. Also, if every Christian took everything written in the Bible as literal truth, then why does the shrimp industry fare as well as it does?

Leviticus11:10 "And all that have not fins and scales in the seas and in the rivers...they shall be an abomination unto you".

Have you ever eaten lobster? Or mussels, or oysters? Do you believe the Sun rotates around the Earth? The book of Joshua is very clear on that point. Evolutionism is a scientific view. Christianity is a religious view. There need not be any conflict between them, except when people like you choose to interpret everything as direct, factual statements. When the Bible records Jesus telling parables, do you believe that the events which he recounts actually took place? That there was a prodigal son, and that Jesus just happened to be there to record his actions?

	08-06-2001 00:55									#19
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Ancient Times in Civilization Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It's interesting that this "Diablo" fellow is Christian...

etc...

Let it go, KH...I think this is an important topic and don't want to see it closed 'cuz it went off-topic.

Plus you may wish to note that all he really said was that it's a fact humans have been around for 6000 years...I think we all can agree on that.

quote: I'd be all for a 'fast start' option where your two starting settlers will create size 4 cities already containing temple, market place, granary and 1 pikeman. That cuts 60+ turns of tedium out of the beginning of the game right there even if you still have to research the techs to build those buildings and units anywhere else.

I second this motion. I know there's an "accelerated startup" option in civ2 but again I'd like to be able to place my own cities, and not have my capital settled on a glacier tile...

	08-06-2001 01:05									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't really see the importance of accelerated startup. No matter how good they make the AI, I'll never trust it to make any important decisions for me. Also, I find the beginning of the game goes rather fast. It is, as some say, a lot of clicking, but I can get through the first 2000 years in less than an hour, given the small amount of units at my disposal. Besides this, the first 30-40 turns are, for me, absolutely overwhelmingly vital for my future success. If you don't want to play a game from beginning to end, there are numerous scenarios out there.

	08-06-2001 01:36									#21
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Krazyhorse,

as for your comment, I think you need to stop with the criticism. In every post you do, you always critisize someone.I used to put my oppinion across very harshly, as you do now, and in do time, you will learn what I did, that once people see that you only like to be rude, they wont listen to you anymore. Luckily that is in my past now. I just want to warn you.

Why do you not believe I live in Salt Lake?

if my spelling is so bad, then please correct it for me.seriously, point out every in-correct spelling.

As for my profile, I am not thirteen, and I put "assasin" and "likes to kill heros" as a joke.

as for my name, I like the game diablo, and also my name was the first one that popped into my mind. Just because I am christian, does not mean I cant play games that mean "devil".

also, a quck question, where do you live?

and one last thing, never never never call my religion crazy. that is one of the fastest ways of getting enemies, and that is one of the lowest 'put-downs' I have ever seen.


Now, enough with off-topic, lets get back to the subject at hand.

	08-06-2001 01:46									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sorry, everyone else, but this is my last post on the subject. Heroes. Assassin.

Edit: Just noticed this. Diablo, I live on Cote-Des-Neiges, just down the hill from the Montreal General Hospital. The reason I claimed that you probably do not live in Salt Lake City is the adolescent nature of your writing style. Given this, and given your earlier provocative statements, I think that you are possibly pretending to live in Salt Lake City in order to legitimize your claim to being a biblical literalist. I think that any belief system which has the pretension to dictate physical facts without physical evidence is nuts, and will continue to say so. Hence the belief (widespread until the 17th century, at least) that men have one rib fewer than women, since God created Eve from Adam's rib. Count them for yourself.

Last edited by KrazyHorse on 08-06-2001 at 02:00

	08-06-2001 21:50									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

.........And relax.


Now back to the plot

I agree, that nothing much happened in the ancient age of civ2, but i doubt that will still be the case in civ3. There will much more you have to take care of, like the new resources and trade will affect the early game a lot as well. The list may not be endless but is centainly a lot longer than in civ2.

I did try the accelerated start mode on civ2 once or twice and remember, (wasn't there one for SMAC as well? or am just confused - there was an option with 'accerated' in it). It wasn't very useful, you didn't miss much of the ancient time anyway, and you could trust the ai to really mess up the games for you.

	08-06-2001 22:12									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

closed upon request of the thread starter