06-06-2001 07:13									#1
	The base limit calculation is *completely* wrong Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Here's the datalinks description:

Bureaucracy is the addition of extra Drones because a faction has
exceeded a certain number of bases. The bureaucracy formula works
as follows:

BaseLimit = (8 - Difficulty) * (4 + Efficiency) * MapRoot / 2

Where:
Difficulty = Player's difficulty level (0 - 5)
Efficiency = Social Engineering rating.
MapRoot = Sq. Root of # Map Squares / Sq. Root of 3200.

For each base a faction builds in excess of this number, one additional
drone will appear at some base somewhere in the colony.

So, I started up a standard size map (80 x 80) on thinker with Zahk.

Here's the projected base size before drones with the above formula:

Size Efficiency
0 -4
2.82 -3
5.65 -2
8.485 -1
11.31 0
14.14 1
16.97 2
19.8 3
22.6 4

By screwing around with the command editor, I got the "this base will add a drone" warning at:
Size Efficiency
8 Less than or equal to 0
10 +1
12 +2.....

The +2 size per efficiency point continues all the way up to +7, as near as I can tell.

Obviously, the datalinks formula is insanely wrong. So, anyone want to do the testing to determine the correct amounts? I guess it'd take five minutes of work with the scenario editor for each size; who knows how the difficulty setting actually effects it?

	06-06-2001 08:52									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Your problem might lie in the fact that 80 x 80 is anything but standard, and in that you are applying the formula to just one base.

Alpha.txt says (my bolding):

#WORLDSIZE
5
Tiny planet|(early conflict), 24, 48
Small planet, 32, 64
Standard planet, 40, 80
Large planet, 44, 90
Huge planet|(late conflict), 64, 128

I've bumped one of the archived threads where it was dealt with at some length by MariOne and Fitz. Map size is crucial to understanding the formula.

G.

Last edited by Googlie on 06-06-2001 at 09:25

	06-06-2001 19:32									#3
	*Whacks head* Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Argh. I was thinking that since the maximum cell number for a standard map is 79,79, the size would be 80, but I guess it only counts every other east-west square due to the way they're laid out.

Oh well; that still doesn't explain why 0 or less efficiency gives the same base limit. It'd be nice to have a chart, too.

	06-06-2001 20:17									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

somehow, the facts that I was attracted by this thread and that I found myself cited herein, are not a coincidence
I actually started myself from the work of others, who alas I can't recall right now.

You're right KM, the size of a map is half of what you could expect from the max coordinates, due to the way they're laid out.
Although you can read coordinates up to 79,79, the trick lies in the fact that you have 0,0 & 0,2 tiles, but not 0,1, or 1,1 & 1,3 tiles, but not 1,2.

Indeed, you must rely on the figures in alpha.txt for the default sizes, and on the figures you *enter* for a custom size: if you enter 50x100, you'll read coordinates up to 99,99, but your map tiles are 5000, not 10000.

(all this is written offhand, so I might have inverted some reference)

You'd notice that SQROOT(3200) is the same as 40*SQROOT(2).
Without delving into figures at length, the relative dfeault sizes allow us to say that:

For Standard Planetsize (40x80=3200, and here's where that value comes from) the MapRoot factor is equal to 1
Tiny: 24/40 = 0.6
Small: 32/40 = 0.8
Huge: 64/40 = 1.6

The Large size doesn't fit in this schema, as the height is NOT the double of the width. SQROOT(3960/3200=1.2375)=1.11243

In your example, the Difficulty factor for Think is set at (8-4)=4

So the fromula reads:
4 * (4+Eff) * MapRoot / 2

for standard size, MapRoot=1
BaseLimit = 2 * (4+Eff)

For normal factions, no SE switches, Eff=0, Efficiency factor in the formula (4+0)= 4, BL=2*4=8
For PK BL=2*(4-1)=6
For Gaia BL=2*(4+2)=12

For Huge (MapRoot=1.6) these values become:
Gaia: 19.2
others: 12.8
PK: 9.6

I didn't always pay attention to this issue, but as far as I can recall the values are rather consistent with my experience.

Of course when you apply Efficiency modifications in the SE, you have to recalculate the limit.
I can't say whether the drones already generated disappear when you switch to a higher efficiency. For sure, I saw lots of drones *immediately* appear when I switch to a lower efficiency.

If you run, say Univ with PoliceState & Planned, you would have Efficiency = -4, thus the BL should be set to 0.
I never cared to test such conditions.
I can suggest that as with the EcoDamage formula, that factor can't be reduced to 0, it bottoms at 1, but that's totally to be verified, just a wild assumption.


BTW, in your examples you use the tag SIZE. Some reader might get confused: Bureaucracy is not about bases sizes, is about the NUMBER of bases in your faction, and I think that you intended Size that way.

Indeed, if we take again your example and the formula
BL=2*(4+0eff)=8
BL=2*(4+1eff)=10
BL=2*(4+2eff)=12

and you see that the values you observed are perfectly consistent with the formula.

	07-06-2001 02:56									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

MariOne,

The drones generated by being over a base limit DO immediately dissapear when you raise your efficincy in the SE screen.

I am playing the UoP in a SP game currenly. I am alone on a mid sized continent with the Jungle all to myself. Anyways, I went on a rabid expansion streak, blew past the base cap by at least 5 bases. As soon as I finished researching EthCalc, I switched from Frontier to Democratic, and all of the extra drones vanished.

So the opposite of what you observed is also true.

	08-06-2001 18:51									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

karlmarx9001, we've been discussing the effect of negative Efficiency in the "Hive and Zero Efficiency??" thread. My experience from playing the Peacekeepers indicates that, as MariOne suggested, Efficiency bottoms at 0 for purposes of bureaucracy. If that is correct, it means that in fact all the factions have, as far as bureaucracy is concerned, the same Efficiency immunity as the Hive.

Verrucosus