10-06-2001 02:39									#1
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Ever wonder why pops get worse?

I have. I had assumed it had something to do with techs, but let me assure you it does not.

What it has to do is with is total terraforming damage by a faction.

Why do I say this?

I just completed a game where I got two late pops - in the sea. Each apparently had just one locust and one isle.

What was different about this game was my entire world consisted of nothing but forests and sea terraforming. (It was an experimental world designed to test what pre-foresting would do to the AI.)

Since the only pops occurred at sea and the only "negative" terraforming was at sea, I suggest that the number of worms is highly related to "negative" terraforming. (Define: "Negative terraforming" is terraforming that subtracts from "clean minerals.")

Notice that the fungal blooms most often occur at mines and boreholes. This as well suggests that pop location and strength is highly related to mineral producing terraforming.

Finally, notice that the first few pops have no worms at all, but later pops have similar strengths regardless of where they occur. This suggests a faction-wide effect.

Ned

	10-06-2001 11:16									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes, you're right Ned, your eco-damaging pops are coming from "dirty terraforming."

The formula for it is in the datalinks, something long and obtuse that I won't reprint here, though I know that *all* terraforming to a degree is bad and contributes to ecodamage, just on different levels, with the exception of forests, which alleviate it. The real contributors are Echelon Mirrors, Condensors, and especially Boreholes. Planet rating aggravates or alleviates the affect conversely. Hybrid forests are supposed to eliminate eco-damage completely, but I know don't. I know that any mineral multiplying facility (Genejack Factory, Robotic Assembly Plant, Nanofactory, Quantum Converter) also greatly aggravates the eco-damage effect, especially with minerals coming in from particularly dirty terraforming in the first place. Often I have to rush-build preserves right after factories for instance, to avoid total worm-rape. This makes sensors particularly important late mid-game and onwards so I'm reminded of the worms present during eco-pops when there's a lot of micromanaging going on. Once I forgot about a late-game pop near a sensor-less base after all the pop-up boxes were gone and after the turn, it wasn't pretty.

Eco-pops seem to reduce eco-damage overall afterwards, converting those minerals it poped in the place of into "clean" ones. I think late-game pops increase in severity, regardless of the amount of eco-damage in a base, due to its relative population and overall mineral production. So an early game base producing 12 minerals at 20 eco damage may pop one or two worms, but a late game base producing 50 minerals at the same 20 eco damage will pop 10 or 12. Just my experience.

	10-06-2001 23:01									#3
	Remove this text

Marid, Thanks for the reply. Yes the formula for ED is in the Datalinks. Blake, Fitz and I did some investigation and found some interesting new information. See the long thread on "Base size and pollution." I submitted the below to DanQ last week for publication in some manner on this forum.

However, my post is not so much about the ED formula, it is about the degree of a fungal bloom. There is no formula for this in the Datalinks as far as I know. It just appeared to me that the number of worms was related to techs or years or something like that, as the number kept increasing as the game went on. However, that is wrong! It rather appears to be related to the total terraforming damage of your faction.

Anyhow, here is the draft of the "submission."

Draft:

Eco-Damage Formula Revised - Have you ever wondered why the number of minerals a base could produce seemed to rise as the game went on or was greater the more bases you had? There is a good reason for this, but it is not explained in either the Datalinks or the manuals. Ned, Blake and Fitz have discovered that each time you “build” (not acquire) a Tree Farm, a Hybrid Forest, a Centauri Preserve or a Temple of the Planet, the number of minerals you can produce before eco-damage begins at all increases by one. The effect is not limited to the base in which you build the facility. It applies for every base in your faction!
The effect is permanent. You can sell these facilities, give them away, have them captured or destroyed, but the number of “clean minerals” each of your bases can produce never goes down. You can even rebuild the facilities you just sold and the number of “cleans minerals” still increases.
The effect only begins after your faction (not others) experiences its first fungal bloom, aka, “pop.” From a strategy point of view, they suggest, it is therefore very important that you force a pop before you begin construction any of these “clean mineral”-enhancing facilities. Many of us have tried to avoid pops as long as possible. However, this strategy can severely backfire if you end up building a significant number of the “clean mineral”-enhancing facilities before experiencing that first pop. So force the pop.
In fact, you may want to force several pops before you acquire the technology for Tree Farms or Centauri Preserves. Each pop also increases the number “clean minerals.”
Ned, Blake and Fitz have also determined that neither the number of techs, the planet rating nor the construction of Nanoreplicators, the Pholus Mutagen or the Singularity Inductor have any effect on the number of “clean minerals.” Instead, these have an affect the degree of eco-damage when present. However, eco-damage is not present at all until the combination of terraforming damage and mineral production in a base exceeds the “clean mineral” limit of a faction. Eco-damage increases from this point for each mineral produced over the limit. It is then multiplied by a number related to the level of difficulty and native life setting from custom start that is adjusted, up or down, by each of these factors.
The entire revised eco-damage formula can be seen at: [Dan Q, you might want to post this formula in the forum or in some other location that can be accessed on a permanent basis.]
Strategy:

As soon as practically possible force a fungal bloom in one of your bases. This means that once you start building Tree Farms and/or Centauri Preserve’s they will increase your clean mineral threshold.
The number of “clean minerals” begins at 16. However, eco-damage unusually begins when a base is producing 12-14 minerals. The reason for this is that until you build Tree Farms and Hybrid Forests in a base, terraforming damage caused by roads, farms, mines, etc., subtracts from the number of “clean minerals” available for that base.

So, when begin to see eco-damage, rather than moving workers to less mineral intensive tiles to avoid it, just let the base stay “in the red.” Sooner or later, you will experience a pop.
Your “clean mineral” limit has now increased to 17. A base that once was creating eco-damage at 12 minerals may now be “clean.” Its limit has moved to 13.
But what do you do now? Do you act to reduce eco-damage at your bases or do you leave them alone to continue polluting? After all, each pop itself adds one to the “clean mineral” limit.
The answer is that you should keep your bases polluting until you experience your second pop. That one, as with the first one, is worm free. It increases your “clean mineral” limit by another 1, to 18.
From this point on, pops will have worms. In addition, too many pops in successive years may bring on Global Warming. Caution and control are both required.
A controlled method to continue to increase your “clean mineral” threshold via pops is to create a "polluter base." This base should be geared towards killing the mindworms that appear. Both empath artillery and empath rovers would be desirable. An eco-damage of ~ 40 should create a pop almost every other turn. This frequency should allow some healing time for the worm killers and also not cause global warming. Not only would this strategy increase your “clean mineral” threshold, it would increase your cash from the harvested planetpearls.

Centauri Preserves have three useful functions: 1) their constructions adds to “clean minerals,” 2) they reduce eco-damage if present, and 3) the add 1 to the lifecycle of native life produced by a base. The also cost 2 energy credits to maintain.
If you keep your “clean mineral” limit above your maximum mineral production, a Centauri Preserve’s second function will never be used. If have no need to produce native life at this base, neither will its third function. It is best then to simply scrap the Centauri Preserve as soon as you build it. You can then pocket 50 energy credits.
You might then consider the following strategy, which is especially recommended in small empires that will produce only a limited number of Tree Farms and Hybrid Forests. Set aside a number of bases that primarily do nothing more than build, sell and rebuild Centauri Preserves. This will continuously increase your “clean mineral” limit and generate a source of revenue.
Another way to increase your “clean mineral” threshold without requiring more bases is building Tree Farms (and maybe Centauri Preserves and Hybrid Forests) in captured bases before giving them to submissives. You get the clean mineral benefit, your submissives benefit from the improved infrastructure in the base, and finally, you benefit from the increased commerce the base produces with Tree Farms or Hybrid Forests.

Before using Planet Busters or Techtonic Missiles (both effectively reduced the “clean mineral” limit by 5) prepare your faction by building 5 more Centauri Preserves for every Planet Buster or Techtonic Missile you intend to launch. If you have 20 bases and build+scrap a Centauri Preserve in each of them, you can launch 4 Planet Busters or Techtonic Missiles without requiring you to lower your bases mineral production. You may still have to deal with “other” consequences of course .

Free Market becomes a viable SE choice even when combined with very high mineral production. Even though Free Market lowers the Planet Rating, a lower Planet Rating only operates to increase any eco-damage that is present. If none is present because you keep the “clean mineral” limit above the number of minerals your bases produce, Free Market causes no damage at all.
Once you have the technology to build both Tree Farms and Centauri Preserves and know to keep building them as your mineral production mounts, you may build as many boreholes as space allows without fear of eco-damage. Rocky areas that cannot be bored can be mined, roaded and crawled. Other base squares could be converted to condensers/farms/enrichers and crawled. In time, all your workers could be working boreholes, sea squares or be assigned specialist duties. Such a base, combined with either FM, Wealth plus Golden Age, or in the case of Morgan, Wealth alone or Knowledge + Golden Age to produce a +2 economy, will produce “extreme” amounts of eco-damage-free minerals, raw energy, commerce, and specialist-produced energy credits and labs.
The “Clean Mineral” strategy!

Ned, Blake and Fitz present a revised eco-formula below.
Eco-Damage = (DamageFactor * Perihelion * Techs * Life * Difficulty * Planet) / 300
Planet = PLANET Social Engineering -3, to a minimum of 1.
Difficulty = 3 on Librarian and lower, 5 on Thinker and Transcend
Life = 1, 2 or 3 for Rare, Normal or Abundant native life
Techs = # of techs discovered by your faction
Perihelion = 1 or 2 depending on whether Alpha Centauri is in perihelion

DamageFactor = Int{ [Terraforming - Cleanmins1] + [(Minerals - Cleanmins2 + 5*Atrocities) / (1+Goodfacs)] }
Terraforming = [(2*# worked (not crawled) improvements other than kelp farms)+(# of unworked improvements) + 8*Boreholes + 6*Echelon Mirrors + 4*Condensors +1 if a Seabase -#of Forests]/8.
Divide by 2 for presence of a Tree Farm and reduce to 0 for presence of a Hybrid Forest.

Improvements include Roads, Mag Tubes, Farms, Mines, Solar Collectors, Soil Enrichers, Boreholes, Echelon Mirrors, Kelp Farms, Tidal Harnesses, Offshore Platforms and Condensors.
Cleanmins = 16 + # Fungal Blooms + # Tree Farms, Hybrid Forests, Centauri Preserves and Temples of Planet constructed by your faction since the first Fungal Bloom.
Cleanmins1 = Cleanmins or Terraforming, whichever is less. If Terraforming is negative, Cleanmins1 = 0.
Cleanmins2 = Cleanmins - Cleanmins1.

Minerals = Total minerals produced by this base after multiplying by facilities - total minerals received by this base from orbit.

Goodfacs = 1 each for the presence of Centauri Preserve, Temples of Planet and Nanoreplicator in this base, + 1 each for possessing the Pholus Mutagen and Singularity Inductor.

Atrocities = Number of Major Atrocities committed by your faction. These include the use of planetbusters or techtonic missiles, but do not include the use of fungal missiles.

Last edited by Ned on 10-06-2001 at 23:14

	11-06-2001 22:17									#4
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I hereby nominate Ned, Blake and Fitz for the 2001 Nobel Prize in SMAC research. The recent ED work has some really significant strategy implications, which is rare for a game that has been out so long. Unfortunately I think the monetary award that goes with this prize is somewhat less than the one associated with the Nobel in Medicine, espcially after you split it three ways. But hey, you'll get the international recognition of the SMAC community.

I also have a question related to severity of the worm invasion after the pop. Often a given pop will result in the appearance of two or more worms (or other native life form). Sometimes, but not always, if I kill the first worm the others instantly "grow" one lifecycle. If I kill the second (now bigger) worm, all remaining worms grow one lifecycle again. If you started with three or four worms and they grow everytime you kill one it is easy to end up with a couple of Demon Boils to deal with. My question is this: why do the remaining worms sometimes grow after you kill one but other times they don't grow? Is it random? Does it depend on total ED? Difficulty level? (I ususually play Transcend).

	11-06-2001 22:40									#5
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Quantum, I believe that when you kill some native life, any adjacent native life receives the upgrade. I am pretty sure that this only applies to "wild" native life, not yours or mine; I therefore do not think it is random. As to whether the ED or difficulty level affects this, I don't know for sure, but I don't think so (except insofar as the ED and Diff level (or being green) affect getting the >pop< in the first place (and the being green your chances of killing the native life in the second place)).

	12-06-2001 06:04									#6
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quote: I hereby nominate Ned, Blake and Fitz for the 2001 Nobel Prize in SMAC research.

oooh goody

quote: Unfortunately I think the monetary award that goes with this prize is somewhat less than the one associated with the Nobel in Medicine, espcially after you split it three ways.

Doh' Once again my get rich quick scheme has been foiled by the properties of multipling/dividing zero.

quote: But hey, you'll get the international recognition of the SMAC community.

Just what I always wanted!


With worm lifecycle increases. I find generally all adjacant wild native life gains 1 lifecycle when you kill a wild native life form. (I believe there are some exceptions, I think when you kill a locust nearby worms aren't upgraded, but if you kill a mindworm adjacant locusts are upgraded.) Ofcourse they can't be upgraded past demon boil, and I believe in the early game there is a limit to how big a wild mindworm can be.

Ned, I really don't know about size of worms, but I *think* the lifecycle stage of 'pop' worms depends on date/terra ED and the number depends on pop history (# previous pops). I also believe it has nothing to do with tech.

	12-06-2001 06:16									#7
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Blake, I think the lifecycle of the worms may and probably does have something to do with techs, but not their number. That has to do with ED.

In the forest-world game I mentioned, I had my usual number of pops primarily caused by pushing minerals to a new high by building factories and the like. However, I got only one locust in most cases. I never saw the isle, if it was there originally, in at least two or three occasions.

No, pop history has nothing to do with the number of worms from a boil.

Ned

	12-06-2001 10:37									#8
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In a recent game, I had a major problem with pops, which averaged 10-15 worms, starting out pre-boils, and growing with every couple pops untill they reached mature status. In one group I managed to capture there were about 25 boil sized worms!

This was all mid-late game, when I had about 75-85% of the techs researched, about 25 bases scattered accross the continent, and extending onto other continents. Don't ask the game year, I don't keep track of that.

	12-06-2001 11:37									#9
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Wasn't there somewhere here that someone realized if you push pollution past a certain limit the pops stop?

	12-06-2001 12:50									#10
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Dunno, it may be possible to cause ED to "overflow" and result in no pop, I know that building VoP stops pops (or prehaps just stops the worms which comes with pops). But anyway, after you build VoP you have no more mindworm problems.

	12-06-2001 20:54									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

Blake, I've noticed that before: Build the VoP and further pops produce no worms. In a recent game, I let the AI build the VoP so that I could build crawlers and the like. Well, after the AI built the VoP, and in the turn before I built the final SP with the crawlers, I got a pop with a lot of worms.

Another side "benefit" of the VoP is that it doubles? rush costs.

Ned

	13-06-2001 02:28									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

No, KitKat. I posted my discover of high ED leading to no pops. It was above 200 somewhere. No pops occurred at that base until I dropped it's ecodamage, some 100 turns later, to the 100-200 range.

The pops following VoP are due to a PLOT device. So they have no worms. However, any ecodamage pops WILL have worms. Go figure. Another feature of SMAC/SMACX.

What about POPULATION? You can have a low mineral base that has a high ecodamage due to population. How does that affect your numbers and formula?

	13-06-2001 05:50									#13
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Darkstar, Now that's exactly what I thought before we began to verify what was causing ED. It definitely is not population. Nor are the number of worms. Ed is primarily caused by mineral production exceeding "clean minerals." See the above post and the thread on this topic entitle "Base size and pollution." Ned

	14-06-2001 01:24									#14
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thats right. oh well.

	14-06-2001 02:01									#15
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If the >pops< stop somewhere up the ED ladder (somewhere above 200, dild you say, Darkstar?), it (the amount of ED) probably exceeded the capacity of some counter and perhaps "rolled over", suggesting that there is are zones of free ED here and there.

If the ED value shown in the base screen could be shown to drop to zero when it was juiced up just past some magic number (like over 255, for example), that would be interesting and maybe useful, but if the rollover is lost somewhere in the middle of the ED calculation, it would be (not) fun to track down and/or use profitably. If it is a rollover, the ED might reappear once you added on some function of >clean minerals< more bad stuff.

	14-06-2001 02:49									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

John, I ran a few games just to see how high I could get the ED to go. Very quickly, thanks to boreholes, mines, and crawling minerals, I had it in the 400 range. But I just couldn't push it higher at the time... no free mineral spots to send back.

That base never suffered a pop until I dropped it's ED WAY down. Although I did have pops going on my second continent... whenever the genejack factory went in, that generally got them into the 2 to 6 range... and they popped a LOT, until they got down to 0.

Now, maybe the ED figure gets plugged into the random pop generator, and IT can't handle a figure that is "too high". But that just saves you from local pops. I have used that trick in a few other games since seeing that oddity, and let me tell you, Planet likes to FLOOD if you have more then one city doing that.

I certainly won't argue with people that have made a serious study of population and tech effects on ED. But I recall having seen bases gain ED by population growth alone. No new squares worked (cause it has to be changed to a entertainer, excuse me, doctor). Mineral count remaining the same and no new terraforming. Bango, ED value now of 2 and had been clean. I'll keep my eyes open for that situation for a while, to catch a game set of before and after though, now that I know that it might be useful to have. Maybe I missed something, or misunderstood what had ACTUALLY happened, and so I've formed a faulty theory that pop alone can cause ED.

I'm off to check out those threads mentioned!

	14-06-2001 05:32									#17
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Darkstar,
Increasing tech is a likely possibility for your increasing ED all else being equal; there's a ratio of a bunch of things including tech divided by 300, I think which periodically jumps up as your tech increases. (excerpt below from Ned's earlier post)

quote: Eco-Damage = (DamageFactor * Perihelion * Techs * Life * Difficulty * Planet) / 300

You'll see the detail in the original thread if you persevere; I think it's called "base size and pollution", IIRC.
John

	20-06-2001 14:56									#18
	Wait, call off the Nobel Prize... Increase Your PM Length

Gamespot included in their strategy guide (copyright 2000; it predates SMACX) a formula eerily similar to the one proposed by Ned, Blake, and Fitz, and I quote:

"Ecology
Ecological damage is determined by the following complex formula:
1. For each base, total the number of mines, solar collectors, farms, soil enrichers, roads, mag tubes, condensers, and boreholes. Items in squares that are actually being worked count double.
2. Add an extra +8 for each borehole and +4 for each condenser.
3. Subtract 1 for each forest.
4. Halve each base that has a tree farm, and eliminate it if it also has a hybrid forest.
5. Divide this value by 8 and reduce by up to 16 (Ed: I take this to mean, if it's less than 16, reduce to 0) plus the number of previous damages (Ed: I take this to mean fungal blooms).
6. Take the number of minerals produced this turn.
7. If result from step 5 was reduced by less than 16, reduce the result from step 6 by the remaining amount.
8. Divide minerals by 1 plus the number of Centauri Preserve, Temple of Planet, and Nanoreplicator.
9. Sum the values of steps 5 and 8 and add +5 for each major atrocity.
10. If Alpha Prime is at perihelion, double your value.

Eco-Damage: (Value from step 10) * Difficulty * Technologies * (3-Planet) * Life / 300"

'Nuff said.

Last edited by vogon_jeltz on 20-06-2001 at 15:31

	20-06-2001 20:50									#19
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Vergon, That formula is taken almost directly from the Datalinks. It is accurate to a degree, but omits the most critical information. You will see nothing in the formula concerning increasing clean minerals, which begin at 16, as you build TFs, HFs, CPs and ToPs after a pop.

On topic, though, I had a recent game where I got a late-game pop. In this game, I had done considerable terraforming, but the world was one where I had "pre-forested" the planet. I got only two small worms from the pop. I was really surprised.

At the same time, the AI was experiencing its normal worm assault by squadrons of demon boils.

Clearly the number of forest squares in one's domain is having an effect.

Ned

	20-06-2001 21:08									#20
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I also think ned is right but recently I was playing a game where pops only happened after I started using the planet fusion buster. I am new to the game but could that have anything to do with it?

	20-06-2001 21:10									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

Deleted due to double post

Last edited by vogon_jeltz on 20-06-2001 at 21:24

	20-06-2001 21:20									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Vergon, That formula is taken almost directly from the Datalinks. It is accurate to a degree, but omits the most critical information. You will see nothing in the formula concerning increasing clean minerals, which begin at 16, as you build TFs, HFs, CPs and ToPs after a pop.

Um, yes, it does. The clean minerals formulae can be derived almost directly from the formula I posted and linked to. In fact, with some simple algebra, one can write the formula in mathematical form, to wit:

DamageFactor: ((Terraforming + WorkedTerraforming) + 8 * Borehole + 4 * Condenser - Forests * (TreeFacilities / 2) / 8)

Cleanmins: min(DamageFactor, 16 + FungalBlooms)

Cleanmins1: max(0, 16 + FungalBlooms - Cleanmins)

TotalCleanMinerals: Cleanmins + Cleanmins1

DamageFactor2: ((DamageFactor + Minerals - TotalCleanMinerals) / (1 + GoodFacs)) + 5 * Atrocity

GoodFacs: CentauriPreserve + TempleofPlanet + Nanoreplicator

Perihelion: 1 if at perihelion, 0 otherwise

EcoDamage: (DamageFactor2 * Difficulty * Technologies * (3 - Planet) * Life * (Perihelion + 1))/300

or, as one big formula:

EcoDamage: (((((Terraforming + WorkedTerraforming) + 8 * Borehole + 4 * Condenser - Forests * (TreeFacilities / 2) / 8) + Minerals - (16 + FungalBlooms)) / (1 + CentauriPreserve + TempleofPlanet + Nanoreplicator) + 5 * Atrocity) * Difficulty * Technologies * (3 - Planet) * Life * ((1 iff(AlphaPrimeIsAtPerihelion)) + 1))/300

Now, I'm not saying that you plagiarized their work, but it would have been quite a bit easier to quote their formula and make the appropriate changes for SMACX...

Oh, BTW, learn how to spell my nick. It's a modern literary reference. ($0 and a shiny new copy of Windows XP Beta to anyone who can identify the book I took it from.)

	20-06-2001 22:13									#23
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vogon_jeltz:

While I confess that I didn't completely take apart your formula (having had 'sufficient' discussions with Fitz about parens, etc in the other thread), I believe that you will find that neither the formula in the documentation nor your formula take into account the observable phenomenon that:
--after the first >pop<, the construction of each new (TF, HF, CP, TofP) facility allows the production of (approximately) 1 (or more?) additional min(s) without additional ED.--
This effect is in addition to the influence of those facilities in the general formula or whatever torturous variation might be in this or the other thread and applies not just to the base in question, but across your whole faction. In effect, each of those facilities is like an additional >pop<. For further (more accurate) detail and as a kind of initiation rite, I would suggest that you submit yourself to the __ __ of the other thread (base size and polultion) and attempt to disprove the observations/formulae evolved within those posts.

Last edited by johndmuller on 20-06-2001 at 22:18

	21-06-2001 01:08									#24
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quote: Originally posted by vogon_jeltz Now, I'm not saying that you plagiarized their work, but it would have been quite a bit easier to quote their formula and make the appropriate changes for SMACX...

Actually, that is basically exactly what we did do. But there are several VERY major ommisions from DL and guides formulas. And also there is a few calculations which have to be done in different orders, and also some rounding effects to take account of (only if your bored).

No amount of looking at the formula & thinking would be able to make the discoveries and changes we did in the Base Size and Pollution thread. Mainly because the most important part of controlling ED is completely ommited (the short of it is tree farms, hybrid forests, CP's, ToP's increase clean mineral threshold by +1, but then there is also a bunch of other factor, plenty enough for a very long thread)

But yeah, read the thread...

	21-06-2001 03:05									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Look out, it's vogon_jeltz out to keep us honest.

Vogon, we took the incorrect formula from the Prima Guide/datalinks, and figured out how to correct it. Now, is it really suprising that our results look "eerily similar" to their formula? Of course it does, it's based on the original, incorrect, formula provided by Firaxis/Prima.

The cool thing (for me) was finally being able to solve how the discrepencies between the cited formula and observed ego-damage were occuring.

Although, I don't think we ever did calcualte/prove that attrocities was absolutely divided by goodfacs and reduced by cleanmins. I'll have to go reread our thread again.

	21-06-2001 03:21									#26
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quote: Originally posted by vogon_jeltz Now, I'm not saying that you plagiarized their work, but it would have been quite a bit easier to quote their formula and make the appropriate changes for SMACX...

That's exactly what we did. Actually, I have no idea if our revised formula holds in SMAC the original. *Adds to checklist*

quote: EcoDamage: (((((Terraforming + WorkedTerraforming) + 8 * Borehole + 4 * Condenser - Forests * (TreeFacilities / 2) / 8) + Minerals - (16 + FungalBlooms)) / (1 + CentauriPreserve + TempleofPlanet + Nanoreplicator) + 5 * Atrocity) * Difficulty * Technologies * (3 - Planet) * Life * ((1 iff(AlphaPrimeIsAtPerihelion)) + 1))/300

Okay, the actual formula is:

EcoDamage: [ ({[({[(Terraforming + 2*WorkedTerraforming + UnworkedTerraforming) + 8*Borehole + 6*Echelons + 4*Condenser - Forests] * [(2-TreeFacilities)/2]} /8) - (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part1] + [Minerals - (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part2] / [1 + (CentauriPreserve+TempleofPlanet+Nanoreplicator)_inbasse + (PholtusMutagen+SingularityInductor)_factionowned] + 5*Atrocity}) * Difficulty * Technologies * (3 - Planet) * Life * ({1 iff[AlphaPrimeIsAtPerihelion] else 0}+1)]/300

Points of interest in this forumula:

It can be broken down as follows:

[(Terraforming + 2*WorkedTerraforming + UnworkedTerraforming) + 8*Borehole + 6*Echelons + 4*Condenser - Forests] * [(2-TreeFacilities)/2]} /8) - (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part1]

+

[Minerals - (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part2] /[1 + (CentauriPreserve+TempleofPlanet+Nanoreplicator)_inbasse + (PholtusMutagen+SingularityInductor)_factionowned]

+ 5*Atrocities

All of the above * Difficulty * Technologies * (3 - Planet) * Life * ({1 iff[AlphaPrimeIsAtPerihelion] else 0}+1)]/300

Furthermore

(16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part2 = (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities) - (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part1 .

and (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part1 = [(Terraforming + 2*WorkedTerraforming + UnworkedTerraforming) + 8*Borehole + 6*Echelons + 4*Condenser - Forests] * [(2-TreeFacilities)/2]} /8) provided that the value is >=0.
Other wise, part1 = 0.

That was the mathematical representation of the results, with the aforementioned caveat that I can't remember exactly where to place the 5*Atrocities factor. Sorry that I ain't perfect.

Edit: Prima forgot Echelons too aparently. I added them in.

Edit2: Did I forget to mention that special facilities are TreeFarm, Hybrid Forest, Centauri Preserve and Temple of Planet, and that the value is equall to the total number built by your faction since the first pop? I did, didn't I?

	21-06-2001 05:09									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Fitz, most testing I did was in SMAC not SMAX (altough some of my earlier testing was done in SMAX). The formula holds equally true for both, atleast as far as I can tell.

My testing did suggest that for ED purposes "major atrocities" are counted EXACTLY the same as adding 5 minerals to every base (I'm not saying it happens that way in the actual calculation, rather there is no difference between increasing mineral output by 5 and launching a PB).

So it would indeed seem that Atrocity ED is reduced by CP's. (and it's not terribly hard to test either, launch a dozen PB's, build a CP in a base and see if the ED is halved, or reduced by some other fraction).

	21-06-2001 07:17									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Blake and Fitz, I did test it, and the MA ED is divided by (1+GoodFACs).

My apologies, vogon_jeltz, for misquoting your nickname. But I would hope that you would now agree that we did in fact discover new information concerning ED that has not been previously published that is probably significantly more important than the information that is published because it can significantly alter strategy.

Ned

	21-06-2001 07:57									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz was not a pleasant sight, even for other Vogons. His highly domed nose rose high above a small piggy forehead. His dark green rubbery skin was thick enough for him to play the game of Vogon Civil Service politics, and play it well, and waterproof enough for him to survive indefinitely at sea depths of up to a thousand feet with no ill effects. Not that he ever went swimming of course. His busy schedule would not allow it. He was the way he was because billions of years ago when the Vogons had first crawled out of the sluggish primeval seas of Vogsphere, and had lain panting and heaving on the planet's virgin shores... when the first rays of the bright young Vogsol sun had shone across them that morning, it was as if the forces of evolution ad simply given up on them there and then, had turned aside in disgust and written them off as an ugly and unfortunate mistake. They never evolved again; they should never have survived. The fact that they did is some kind of tribute to the thick- willed slug-brained stubbornness of these creatures. Evolution? they said to themselves, Who needs it?, and what nature refused to do for them they simply did without until such time as they were able to rectify the grosser anatomical inconveniences with surgery. Meanwhile, the natural forces on the planet Vogsphere had been working overtime to make up for their earlier blunder. They brought forth scintillating jewelled scuttling crabs, which the Vogons ate, smashing their shells with iron mallets; tall aspiring trees with breathtaking slenderness and colour which the Vogons cut down and burned the crab meat with; elegant gazelle- like creatures with silken coats and dewy eyes which the Vogons would catch and sit on. They were no use as transport because their backs would snap instantly, but the Vogons sat on them anyway. Thus the planet Vogsphere whiled away the unhappy millennia until the Vogons suddenly discovered the principles of interstellar travel. Within a few short Vog years every last Vogon had migrated to the Megabrantis cluster, the political hub of the Galaxy and now formed the immensely powerful backbone of the Galactic Civil Service. They have attempted to acquire learning, they have attempted to acquire style and social grace, but in most respects the modern Vogon is little different from his primitive forebears. Every year they import twenty-seven thousand scintillating jewelled scuttling crabs from their native planet and while away a happy drunken night smashing them to bits with iron mallets. --The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy -- Dogulas Adams -- May he rest in peace. We will miss you.

So, do I win?