14-06-2000 08:08									#1
	random happiness fluctuations Tired of ads?

OK, by now I know a lot about happiness -- including the odd fact that it takes two luxuries to move a citizen from unhappy to content or from content to happy, but it only takes two luxuries to move a citizen from outraged all the way to happy. ?? But here's the thing I can't figure out: why does the number of content v. unhappy v. outraged citizens sometimes change, without any apparent reason? I know adding cities will do it. I know units-in-the-field or martial-law units will do it. And I'm pretty sure that changes in war/peace status can also change it. But every now and then, I've got the balance of happy/unhappy carefully controlled, and all of a sudden a city slips into civil unrest with no change in any factor that I can think of that should affect it. What am I missing?

	14-06-2000 08:37									#2
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The city went up a level? Although that seem sto easy an answere.

Spies destroyed you temple when you weren't looking?

Gov't change, you lowered luxuries?

If you have no units in the field it isn't Civ size and you have been keeping track I have no Idea. What level do you play on?

------------------
See you in court.

	14-06-2000 11:13									#3
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Nope. Those are all things that I forgot to mention, but I've also ruled them out as explanations.
I play Deity now, having arrived at that point less than a year ago.

	14-06-2000 12:49									#4
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Did your city have any trade routes? Maybe the trade route income dropped and this also meant you got less luxuries.

Possible causes: other civ changed government, city size lowered because of building a settler or being attacked. Or maybe some other things I didn't think about.

	14-06-2000 16:24									#5
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Maybe the city moved a worker off a good trade square. If the city went up or down in pop, it might have short changed trade due to its total desire to put workers on food squares.
Also, if a civ you don't have an alliance with moved a military unit into the city radius, it might have forced a worker off of a good trade square.

Or, even more likely... a bug

	14-06-2000 22:59									#6
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The post topic brings up a really good question. I like the stuff on Trade--especially if a trading partner goes from monarchy to Republic/Democracy and the AI cities start growing with celebration-- the trade with that city will increace.

But I believe one thing not mentioned from so far is the affects of getting certain religious sciences...isn't there a science that changes the affects of a coliseum or cathedral, as mysticism changes the affects of a temple--ah, communism...I can't remember?

[Edit: Theology,Electronics,Mysticism and Communism affect certain happy improvements according to civilipedia.]

Another curious event might be related to many cities overlapping, but Debeest, you alluded to the magic number of cities under certain governments: I've wondered if magic number effects compound with even more cities....what is it, 8 for monarchy? Say you you have 12 to 16 cities, after awhile my experience is the appearance of double unhappy's...or is it due to using an overlapping resource strategy involving many little towns in a small area...I don't know and would love to know.


[This message has been edited by Aurelius (edited June 14, 2000).]

	14-06-2000 23:30									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Paul and Ming, both of you bring up some other excellent possible explanations, and they've certainly happened to me often enough, but those, too, are things that I've ruled out for the mystery occasions. (The bug possibility, of course, gets ever closer to being ruled IN.)

Aurelius, for my last several games I've been trying to track the first appearance of outraged citizens. Of course it depends on level and on government type. Other than that, I'm sure it depends mainly on number of cities, but I suspect there's a little more to it -- maybe a partial dependence on comparison with the numbers of AI cities, or total power, or distance, or something. Just another one of those cool Civ aspects that mimics reality so well that it's too complicated for a ready determination!

	15-06-2000 00:01									#8
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Yeah Debeest,

I like the mysteries too. Someone mentioned a strategy of making size 2 cities into little Shakespeare towns under democracy in conjuntion with JSB wonder and conquest. Well, I tried such a strategy too early in a game that involved many little overlapping cities and every time I created a new city, it would send other cities into disorder...and once I lost a city to the barbarians and it made other cities happier....magic or magic number? But my size two cities with mysticism and temple and martial law being utilized required elvis! (maybe they were size three...but don't think so.)

Simulations should have a life of their own.

	15-06-2000 00:08									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Every time you found a city, or an existing city changes population, the game re-calculates what cities are the 1-8 that are content in deity in Monarchy for example. In an early game you can study this easily if you don't have a happy wonder. This frequently upsets your happiness stability.

The way I deal with it is a technique I learned here: change your tax rate, close your tax advisor, then change your tax rate back to what it was originally - this resets your attitude advisor - and you can check for potential anarchy. Then check each city for population change next turn and try to adjust Elvises or Lux % accordingly. It won't prevent the whole problem, but it reduces the likelyhood of disorder occuring.

	15-06-2000 00:35									#10
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I like those kinds of tricks, Sten.

I learned one recently when trying to 'shield starve' a democratic capital. I had a city that shared resource squares with the AI capital. I would put a unit on their heavy shield resources and get them to reallocate. But then I wanted my city to use the vacated shields and continue sending the Alpine trooper to other shield squares. But my city wouldn't give me the option to do so until I used a diplomat to investigated the capital city! So now I can more affectively 'shield starve' the enemy.

Anyhow, thanks for the tech tip.

	15-06-2000 00:57									#11
	Suffering from ads?

BTW - wassup with the Florida heat? I thought it was supposed to be cool here??

	15-06-2000 01:05									#12
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I forgot to mention that in my last post. Geesh. I'm listening to the Giant's game at PacBell park and it was 97 at gametime...now it is 100 in SF!

These are the days you don't want to live on the top flat and when Bay Area folks should hit the beaches....rare.

	20-06-2000 10:00									#13
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Sten, I think you may have given me the explanation I've been missing. I always watch out for cities about to grow (the kind of task that can make my ICS strategy a bit tedious), and take precautions as needed. And I also try to take precautions when I build new cities, knowing that it may make citizens in other cities unhappy. But it never occurred to me that the GROWTH of one city could throw another city into disorder (or out of WLT*) because the game SHUFFLES which cities have an initial content (or only unhappy) citizen.

Unfortunately, this means it can pretty much happen almost any darn time it wants to, because after a certain point, how often does a turn go by without one of my infinite cities growing? Thus, the only way to deal with it might be to maintain a cushion of happiness in each city.

Rats.

Aurelius' tip on investigating an enemy city in order to speed your own city's use of that city's squares is something that would have been useful to me dozens of times in the past. As someone else recently noted, it's astounding how many tricks one can still learn after all this time. Thanks, all, for the many ideas.

	21-06-2000 19:16									#14
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debeest (or Debeest?). I think the (much maligned) manual does tell you this somewhere (I've not checked but I've known about this for a good while and I only recently started visiting internet sites). But it don't do it with Aurelius' clarity; nor does it give you Sten's magic little tip.

PS Don't really understand what the city wouldn't let you do, Aurelius? Must be I don't invest opposition capitals often enough.

PPS For the dummest A1 prize, the cities where you've driven them off their big shield square w/o being able to put a citizen of your own on it and they don't bother promptly to reoccupy when your unit has to vacate. Happens in my games all the time.