13-06-2001 15:24									#1
	Where is my tech? The sequel Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It happened again to me that I did not get the tech on the turn I was due. Multiplayer game of SMAX, all patches, playing as the Cult and the F2 screen shows a tech cost of 629 and TECH Accumulated of 646 with 0 turns until the next discovery. The F2 screen shows that I am garnering 65 Labs a turn and this number is accurate when compared to the base by base total I did.

Unlike the last time this happened ,(where I had accumulated exactly the tech cost) there is no rounding issues that could reasonably be causing this . I have researched 17 Labs over the cost and only have 14 bases so even if there were a "rounded up" Lab point from each base in the calculations that should be discounted, i would still have enough points to exceed the tech cost.

Is this a common bug? Some people mentioned that it happens from time to time. I'll admit, in SP, I get lazy and would hardly notice this stuff so it could be a frequent occurence. Should I just chaulk it up as a "bug" and leave it at that? It was particularly painful this time since the tech I am researching is Environmental Economics and the lifting of energy restrictions will be quite a boon.

I do not know if any of this makes a difference but . . . . . I am running 50/50 allocation in Demo/Planned as the Cult. I am Planetary Governor and captured one base (generates 2 Labs) last turn. I also captured 1 base (2 labs) and probed a tech this turn but those actions should be irrelevant since they occurred after the tech should have been provided. There are 2 pacts, 1 treaty and 3 vendettas. I have a grand total of one net node and one research hospital (both in the same base) and their boost to labs appears to me to be correct. There were no drone riots or facilities completed on either of the last two turns.

So just a bug or can anyone come up with an explanation for this one ?

Last edited by cbn on 13-06-2001 at 16:42

	13-06-2001 20:20									#2
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cbn, you seem to have found a situation which is well beyond explanation by any reasonable degree of rounding/truncating of the intermediate values; seems like we need yet another theory.

I know that the values the F3 screen shows for net econ output are considerably less than what I actually get (in SP at least). I think I have seen posts attributing this to a bug which fails to effect a Transcend "handicap". I realize that this is the opposite of your problem and a different commodity, but there is this link between labs and econ and (just brainstorming) .....

In your previous thread you indicated that you closely watch the labs; have you confirmed that the accounting is accurate at other points (i.e. while you still have multiple turns to go for a breakthru)? If it said you have 45 need 100 and are producing 15 for an expected breakthru in 4 turns on the previous turn, does it say on the current turn that you have 60, need 100 are producing 15 for a breakthru in 3 turns (adjusting for possible changes in your output)?

I ran through 4 or 5 turns of an early game - SMAC MP at Transcend with FM Morgan and sadly, as near (or far) as I can tell (or see), all the numbers were being calculated on a consistent basis and in accordance with the "way things work" as I understand them (it is a $%$^&%, though, to check out the computer's calculations given ongoing development, pop growth, etc., even with only 3 bases). I also noted that I "lost" the excess labs upon completion of the breakthrough.

I do not doubt that you are experiencing this anomaly, I guess whatever triggers it was not in effect for me during that test. I did notice that the F2 screen seems to pick right up on any fiddling that occurs with the output and that the labs due to a new pop unit are accumulated during its opening turn for whatever that's worth.

	13-06-2001 20:39									#3
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cbn, bizarre and frustrating situation. But, before I'd say for certain it was another 'bug' (and a rare one it seems), have you tried re-installing the game. Maybe there is a corruption in the game file somewhere (stranger things have happened). Try re-installing a clean copy, update with the required patches, and then see if it happens again.

Hopefully it won't, otherwise we may all eventually experience this!

Good luck!

	13-06-2001 21:56									#4
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Johndmuller

I think that the F3 values failed to capture commerce income accurately as one of its flaws IIRC. This time I had planned the timing of my discovery as about 6 or 7 turns ago I had done a whole bunch of fiddling with the SE allocations and my specialists to see if there was a way to economically speed it up. I wanted to maintain a modest cash income so it was not worthwhile to radically alter things. At that time I think I had it calculated to exceed tech cost by 8 -10 but in the interim a base grew and a new worker added to the labs.

I have gone back to a couple of the prior turns and the calculations seem accurate throughout. I have now seen this in two games, both Smax. If it operates like it did in my Hive game, I will get the tech next turn with no real adverse effects. I will be very interested to see what the calculations are.

Killjoy

I will likely do just as you stated. About a week before the first incidence, I had a situation where the game crashed repeaedly and inexplicably. One reboot and all was well. Perhaps a reinstall is in order. I know I will be very interested to see what happens in my other MP games when the next tech is due. I may just hold off on the reinstall until I can check if it happens in the next game (tech due in 2 turns IIRC).



Thanks for the input gang. I have played this game long enough to know that weird stuff does happen from time to time. This bug (if it is a bug) is a pain but if this one pans out like the last, the net effect will be a one turn delay in attaining thie tech.

	14-06-2001 03:35									#5
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On several occasions near the end of large builder games I have seen this phenomenon occur on turns when bases are captured - sometimes taking a faction to thousands more research points than needed. So I am convinced you get an amount of points for the capture itself, but as I have never become aware of/remembered it before it happens, I have not done any controlled experiments. It would be interesting if someone could try it...

	14-06-2001 06:56									#6
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The game calculates tech cost based on your position relative to the number of techs discovered by other players in the game. A couple of times, when this happened to me, I observed that another faction or factions had made breakthroughs at that time, and I assumed that this was the explanation, ie that my tech cost had decreased because my position was poorer, tech-wise, than it had been. So I ended up with more RPs in the bag than were now needed to complete the tech.

Of course, it could be coincidental. I haven't tested it at all. And I'm slightly bemused, in the sense that my tech cost remains the same if I acquire a tech, once I've made my first breakthrough. So I'm not offering it as the solution. But it's a thought?

I haven't seen the phenomenon Tau is describing, but that certainly is something else again. I guess we need Ned and The Team to do a total explanation on how tech cost is calculated, now we understand ecodamage

	14-06-2001 10:00									#7
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CBN, Without having conducted an investigation, I would suggest that Misotu is on to the probable answer. After your end-of-turn was over, which is the only time you can receive a new tech, the tech cost was recalcuated to effectively lower the amount you need for a new tech. Thus, where you went into the between-turns with one turn to go to research the tech, you came out with 0.

Now, if Misotu is right about the tech costs being calculated relative to the techs researched by other factions, then you can bet that some other faction researched a tech during the end of turn.

Misotu, do you remember if anyone came up with a tech cost formula?

Just one more thought: I also understand that a change in SE that changes the research rate will affect tech costs rather than the accrual rate, i.e., it changes the size of the box just like a mineral production box or population box. Thus a change from Fundy to Demo should reduce tech costs by 20%. If you were one turn away, a change in SE may suggest that you are now 0 turns away.

	14-06-2001 13:05									#8
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Thanks Misotu and Ned for the ideas. Its just that it would seem odd that the game would recalculate my tech cost based on my poorer tech position because others discover techs BUT does not if I trade for a dozen techs (this game could not be odd in the way it does things, could it?? LOL). I know my next tech costs more but acquiring techs does not affect the one you are researching now. I have tested this point a couple of times and even acquiring 6 techs in a turn my F2 tech cost did not change on the current tech. For the next tech though, the cost skyrocketed

I will have to test this theory closer but in the last case it does not work . I had calculated my discovery date when there was 6 turns to go for the discovery and had a few Lab points to spare. In that period I had a little bit of base growth but definitely no SE changes. On the anticipated year of discovery my Labs exceeded my cost just as planned but the tech did not arrive.

I am curious so I will begin to log my tech points turn by turn in a couple of MP games. I will also in this process check the F2 screen total against a bases by base check (periodically). If tech cost is being recalculated ( and I always assumed it is not) the recalculation should show up on the F2 screen sooner or later as other factions research and trade.

	15-06-2001 01:11									#9
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Basil, If there are no SE changes, and the cost does not change on the last turn due to someone else researching a tech, then there are two possibilities, one of which seems to have been discounted. The first is a rounding error such that the reported labs and the actual labs are different. The second is that in MP games, tech costs behave like population production boxes: On turn one, the box is filled. On the next turn, population grows by one and any production excesses from the previous turn are lost.

This behaviour is also similar to the way the AI produces SP's. It actually takes them two turns at 0 or 1 turns-to-go to produce an SP. The first turn, the production box is filled (and a warning given). On the next turn, the SP is built.

Ned

	15-06-2001 01:49									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

May I make some observations[/rhetorical]:

It is possible that in MP (and only MP) the other players turns update the tech costs for everyone. I say only in MP, because I believe the MP environment treats everyones terminal like an SP game. It is completely possible that it updates everyones tech costs when a human discovers a tech.

If this is the case, and you are not the first person in a turn, the tech cost could be updated on their turn, and then come back to you.



The only part of this that doesn't fit, is why you don't discover the tech when it passes the cost at the beginning of your MP turn. IF you load the game and then it does your upkeep, it should be passing a techcost breakthrough point during the upkeep. If, on the other hand, the upkeep is performed on the previous players turn when they hit turn complete, then obviously the tech points did not exceed the breakthrough point on their machine, but when you load it up the cost has been exceeded or met (why I don't know). If this is the case, then you have no upkeep to present the tech to you.

Edit: *sigh* You managed to suck me in to the team on this one too Ned

Last edited by Fitz on 15-06-2001 at 01:55

	22-06-2001 03:48									#11
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Ned Misotu, do you remember if anyone came up with a tech cost formula? Just one more thought: I also understand that a change in SE that changes the research rate will affect tech costs rather than the accrual rate, i.e., it changes the size of the box just like a mineral production box or population box. Thus a change from Fundy to Demo should reduce tech costs by 20%. If you were one turn away, a change in SE may suggest that you are now 0 turns away.

Ned, sorry for the late reply. There have been threads on tech cost in the past, but I can't remember if they came up with anything definitive.

I should check some MP games and see if my tech cost changes without me making a b/through, and if so what else happened in the turn that might have caused it. I probably have some good candidates for this.

Just one comment though - the size of the tech cost box doesn't vary with changes in SE settings as far as I am aware. The tech cost remains the same in a current game as UoP where I run Dem/FM/Know/Cybernetic and then switch to Dem/FM/Wealth/no setting. As far as I can tell, what happens is that the research output for each base is summed, and then multiplied to produce the labs output figure shown in the F2 screen. For example, as UoP, if I have a single base producing 10 labs, my F2 screen will show 12 labs/turn (+20%). If I then run knowledge, this will increase to 13 labs (+30%). But the cost of the tech remains constant.

	22-06-2001 18:00									#12
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I am tracking my tech costs in 6 MP games and thus far have never seen a tech cost change once it is established. I have not made any SE changes that impact research yet so I will continue monitoring for when I make such a change. In the course of 3-10 years of monitoring I have made tech trades and have had a couple of techs researched with no reoccurance of the missing tech thing. So far, once established, tech cost does not change until research is complete and a new tech started. I have spot checked the F2 total against my base-by-base calculation and so far the numbers match.

So I have had two incidents where I did not get a tech when expected. In one case I had researched exactly the tech cost (in 2110) and had no modifiers or facilities. In the other instance I exceeded my tech cost by enough points that rounding is not a reasonable explanation. In each case I got the tech a turn later and did not lose ANY labs. Subsequent techs in all my games have appeared on the turn expected in all my games. I'm just planning on chaulking this up to the weirness of Smax unless someone has a new explanation. For now i feel like a guy claiming he has seen an unicorn (or an Ogre III)

	23-06-2001 08:26									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You know, I would have a very hard time believeing that you saw an Ogre MkIII. They usually don't leave much except wrecked armor and AP'd infantry behind.

I've been a HUGE Ogre fan since I first discovered the pocket box edition back in 19...er...way back in the day. I just recently discovered that Ogre/GEV is still alive and kicking. SJ Games has recently released a revised Ogre/GEV et al. You can get to it here. I even found that they have a link to a site put together by Hawkmoon. He has developed an Ogre/GEV gamebox for a program called Cyberboard that allows Ogre and other wargames to be played by email.

Great. That's all I need: another PBEM habit...er.. hobby.


Edit: Fix erronious credits and links. I gotta learn to lay off the sauce this late at night.

Last edited by Deimos on 23-06-2001 at 09:39

	23-06-2001 22:09									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

cbn, this isn't a unicorn thingy - I have seen it too (0 turns to a tech) on several occasions.

	28-06-2001 03:05									#15
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SMAC has 1 bug in it where you only pay 33% of infrastructure cost on Transcend (and 66% of infrastructure cost on the level below that). Obvious glitch. I have heard that was corrected in SMACX, but I never bothered to check it out for myself.

SMAC and SMACX both treat pbem MP as single player games. They are just kludged with a couple of minor things. So... maybe this 0 lab thing is an artifact of your faction going back and forth from human to AI and back. The AI runs different code to do the same things as we users do, and bugs and differences are long known to exist between to two (or more) code paths.

Has anyone seen this in any SP game?

	30-06-2001 01:44									#16
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I have seen this happen too. A game long ago had the same weirdness where my lab points accumulated exceeded the amount necessary to complete the current research. The research did complete with the one turn delay, and if I recall correctly, this happened in a MP game, but I can not say for sure.

	30-06-2001 08:32									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm sorry to say that I have just seen the tech cost change (SmacV4 MP). Not only did I experience the phenomenon you all have been talking about where you have exactly the right amount of labs but still don't get the tech, but on the next turn not only did I not get the tech, but the cost increased so that I had some turns still to go.

I suppose it is likely that the factor causing this was pod popping a tech, and being in the early game, it had a proportionally greater effect (and hence quite noticable) than it would have later in the game. Grrrrr.

	30-06-2001 17:49									#18
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Suppose the following:

The research display gives the lab points needed to the next tech and the current "estimate" of the number of lab points that will be gnerated in the next turn. The research display apparently is updated "after?" processing all bases, but whether you research a new tech is determined base by base.

If the research display indicates that you should have researched a new tech, but you have not, then it is abundantly clear that the base calculation is either different from the research display calculation, or it recognizes a tech cost increase that is not reflected in the research display.

Now, Johnd reports popping a pod. This is known to increase tech costs. Perhaps, then, tech costs are increased for the base-by-base calculations but not for the display calculations.

Any thoughts?

Ned

	01-07-2001 06:19									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Misotu, do you remember if anyone came up with a tech cost formula?

Betcha the tech cost formula is analogous to the one in Civ 2. You fellas should really visit the Great Library in the Civ 2-Strategy forum. Many of the questions I see being asked here were already answered. All right, you can be lazy and just go here.

	02-07-2001 20:25									#20
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CBN, The CIV thread states that the tech costs are a computed by multiplying an adjusted tech number by an fixed number associated witht the tech number. The adjustment to the tech number is based on where the CIV is vis-a-vis a so-called Key Civ. I don't know what a Key Civ is. However, what I think we are seeing in Multiplayer tech costs is that this value is a multi-faction reference value that is adjusted each time a faction gets a tech. Why? Because when the costs of another faction's tech is calculated, it then updates the number.

So, if another faction has researched a tech and closed the gap with you, the leader, it may reduce the penalty your faction is receiving because your penalty or bonus is calculated relative to this common number. Alternatively, if you pop a pod or cash an artifact, you may have increased this penalty to you. However, you do not see this reflected in the display, which apparently is not updated until you actually receive the new tech.

What I am suggesting is that if your tech costs have increased due to the adjustment in the penalty (or bonus), and the new costs exceeds the accumulated lab points, you do not get your new tech.

Does the above make sense? It is very consistent with Johnd's reporting that he popped a pod and received a tech that way. This could have increase his penalty and prevented him from receiving the tech in the turn he expected.

	08-07-2001 23:24									#21
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Ugh! The problem is not limited to MP games. In my current game, as Rose, I have

- Research Cost: 4070
- Accumulated: 4783
- Per Turn: 1274

I am using directed research for the first time in ages. I don't recall seeing the problem in blind research.

Ned