23-06-2000 01:47									#1
	Barbarian oddity? Put an end to popups!

Ok this the 2nd time this has happened in a game to me.Alot of games I might add.

Barb trireme unloads 3 chariots and a leader(wish my triremes could carry all that).

2 die valiantly hurling themselves against pikeman.The other picks off a settler with just a sliver of red left.I mean a sliver.

After the 2 die,the leader "stacks" with the sliver chariot.I was allready rolling in gold so I decide to eliminate the stack.

The LEADER defends the stack of 2 and I get 150 gold.BONUS.

Is this supposed to happen?

	23-06-2000 03:07									#2
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somewhere in the last 3 months of posts, there is a thread covering that - no idea where exactly basically the barbarian leader defends at .125 (not 0). The chariot is likely down to its last point in HP (probably also .125, maybe .100), so the AI determines that the diplomat, with full HP has a better chance of winning than the severely injured chariot and procedes accordingly with the diplomat defense

edit: found one of the threads
[This message has been edited by SCG (edited June 22, 2000).]

	23-06-2000 03:10									#3
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Odd! Never seen it happen like that. I don't recall ever seeing Barb Chariots - almost every other kind of unit though. I have had two barb kings stack - you only receive 150.
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SG (2)

	23-06-2000 04:00									#4
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Yeah, SG2, isn't that a bummer? Two for the price of one. Once, I recall, I waited and waited for 2 leaders to separate and they did. Boom! Boom!

The Barb Leader must have some sort of defence capacity. When I first started playing this game, I chased a Leader along a road with a Phalanx, utilising the Phalanx's 3rd move to attack. The Leader won the battle. And it wasn't on Deity level. Probably, in those days, Prince level tops.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	23-06-2000 10:13									#5
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Never seen smashes situation.

I do like two leader in a fortress.

	23-06-2000 16:51									#6
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Aurelius.

Do you get to capture the two leaders in the fort sequentially? Reason I ask is I've only seen two leaders in a fort once or twice and what happened is that when my units approached they fled (went different ways happy to say). Anyway I read somewhere of the idea of building a remote fort at a likely barb hunting point so as to attract the barbs in and then be able to pick off the defending barb unit w/o killing off the leader. Thought that looked good but haven't found chance to try it yet. Then had one of the barb leaders run away from the fort cases and started to wonder whether the idea is worth the effort or not.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited June 23, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited June 23, 2000).]

	23-06-2000 17:26									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I haven't seen this happen, Smash. Very odd, though. So what is happening is that when a leader is killed/captured in a stack, no gold is given unless the leader's defensive strength is greater or equal to (in the case of another leader) than all other units in the stack, correct? Does this somewhat sum up the situation? What does the manual say about capturing barb leaders, anyway? Does it mention anything that might help out?

I think the "barb killing ground" idea is credited to Ming. He has often brought this idea up in various threads and it works like a charm. I recently finished my quickest conquest game ever and I had one of these zones set up. It was beautiful.

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Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance

	23-06-2000 18:53									#8
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This is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to put it down before I forgot (again).

I've senn several posts in the past where people deliberately leave patches of territory unexplored because "barbs like it", and they believee it encourages barb production.

From what I've seen, if there is a barb spawn-point at a particular spot, it will be used whether it's unexplored or not. It's been a while since I've played Civ II, but in TOT you see every move every barb makes in explored territory, whether you have units nearby or not. As a result, spawn points in explored territory become obvious quickly.

Given that, is there any reason not to explore every corner of the world--especially if you're a barb hunter?

	23-06-2000 23:11									#9
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Monk, my observations coincide with yours. Barb birthplaces often persist even after being explored.

On a couple occasions I've built a city in that area and that seems to have stopped them.

Even a unit placed too close may block them. In my first OCC game barb ships periodically appeared at a certain spot, and I was landlocked so wanted to bribe one. I sent my diplo to the adjacent square and they stopped appearing. Eventually I moved him a couple squares away and they resumed.

I think that if a spawning spot is kept clear, it can continue spawning long after being explored.

	24-06-2000 01:55									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

In the ToT fantasy game, the events file generates many barbarians. That means each type of barb has ten possible squares to appear on. If many of these are in the sea, the barbs keep showing up in a few places over and over.

- toby


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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

	24-06-2000 02:36									#12
	Put an end to popups!

Agree with Campo. Build a city and you will rarely get more barbs spawning on land. Also agree with Monk, fog of war irrelevant.

The ships. If one is hanging around a remote coastline I think that building a city reasonably nearby causes the ship to off load. Just moving a diplo or other unit nearby don't.

Glad to know the killing ground idea is a winner. Will definitely give it a go. Ta Bohlen and more power to your elbow Ming.

Can't recall seeing barb chariots before. Not willing to conclude that this means they don't exist. Saw a barb tank and a barb warrior last week - both produced over the same period in a barb city - went back after game and in cheat mode got the city to produce a barb settler but couldn't persuade it to leave the city.

Not willing to be sure they can't board a ship either.

	24-06-2000 03:33									#13
	Got spare money?

I have yet to see smash's scenario. Probably because I try to get the leader and the gold.
I will send ANYONE after the leader. Even a depleted warrior with 1/3 movement seems to win.
If barbs are stacked in a fort, you can get them one at a time for 150 gold each.

	24-06-2000 04:46									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

hmmm...I get barb chariots all the time.Well not all the time but enough.They did come on a boat also.Maybe my tech path is effecting this.

But that is why I posted in the first place.It seemed odd that a leader would defend a stack regardless of how injured the other unit was.It happened another time in one of the fortnight OCC games and I thought it might have been a glitch caused by the fact that the game was a scenario.

But the last time(2nd time) it was a normal game.Deity,hoardes,medium map blah blah.

I 've only seen it twice.

Part of my decision to take them out was they parked on a silk square that was roaded and I didn't want them to pillage.

maybe some other strange things-

I've had barb leaders pillage.Always when they were alone and "on the run".

I lost a warrior to a leader on hill with 1/3 strenght.The warrior attacked and lost.Not the other way round.That would be odd indeed.

I play this game like some people drink water but I still see the odd "new" thing that makes me wonder if my copy is working right.

	24-06-2000 10:21									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

William, the barb leader has the same stats as the diplomat. If you bribe one you also get a diplomat.

Smash, the game picks the strongest unit as a defender based on defensive strength and remaining hitpoints, so I guess if a barb unit has a defense of 1 and only 1 hp left the leader can be designated as defender.

	24-06-2000 11:00									#16
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Smash, et al.:

My understanding is that barbarian units can appear pretty much anywhere, explored or not. The only thing that puts a kosher on that would be to have a civilization(s) expand into the "wild" areas, thus urbanizing and "yuppy-izing" them .

EST mentioned a barbarian-controlled city spawned a tank ... geez, I've never seen that. The strongest weapons the barbarians seem to get include artillery, calvary and conscripts. Nothing more. I mean, I've created barbarian howitzers and armor to take out a piss-poor placed AI city before ... but never have seen it happen "naturally."

CYBERAmazon

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Resistance is futile. Lower your shields and disable your weapons. You will be assimilated into the Borg Collective.

	24-06-2000 18:14									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Paul, a diplomat on defence is equal to a warrior, 1d, 1hp 1fp. So if the barb leader had the same stats as the diplomat then you would lose alot more offen. As someone pointed out even a wounded warrior attacking at 1/3 power can take a barb leader so it's stats must be weaker then the diplomat, right?

Finbar, Smash, on that barbarian chariot thing ... everyone knows you get barbarian chariots ... what I said was that chariots don't come off of triremes.

	24-06-2000 18:48									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

William, a diplomat has a defense of zero.

	25-06-2000 05:45									#20
	Tired of ads?

I've learned something new today. Thanks for setting me straight on that.

I thought the barbarian leader would have zero hp because I have never seen one get wounded, it's always one hit and over.

	25-06-2000 07:09									#22
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One thing I've picked up from reading the forum is to try things out empirically wherever possible courtesy the Cheat Menu.

So I have one very injured Barb Chariot, hp 12 (close enough to Smash's stated Chariot condition) stacked with Barb Leader on fortressed tundra (normal defence). My Horseman attacks stack and Barb Leader defends on the very first try!

QED - Smash's experience supported .

The 2nd scenario: non-vet Warrior moved twice on river (road) with 1/3 strength attacking Barb Leader (on grassland). Warrior dies 1st try!! But survives redded next try! Well out of 10 tries, it's split 5:5.
Therefore the Barb Leader does have defensive strength >0. Using the above result one could postulate a value of 0.17 (rounding 0.16666666...) .

The postulate of a Barb Leader having a defence value of 0.17 would make sense in the context of this thread.

Worthwhile discovery, Smash and one I will add to my currently meagre stock of strategems for the lucrative 150 gold in the context of OCC. But Barb Chariots? That's a rare animal in my books.
[This message has been edited by tonic (edited June 24, 2000).]

	25-06-2000 07:39									#23
	Tired of ads?

I knew the Aussies would come to the rescue

I often wished barb chariots were rare

Maybe cause I go for Feudalism fairly early for raging hoardes.I don't know.Maybe cause I don't go for Mono very early.

They do come by triremes.At least for me.I get just about every 4 legged barb unit from boats of some kind.

Sometimes I get these HUGE raiding parties.20+ units of cutting edge technology.They just keep popping up from a central square.

I've had 2 and 3 barbs boats show up at the same time with the accompanying troops.

	25-06-2000 20:47									#24
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I knew I saw this before...

The Pikeman's Defense: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/H...html?date=21:37

The pertinent sections start around mid-thread.

	25-06-2000 20:56									#25
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I remain fairly convinced that I don't see barb chariots often. No longer trust my memory as to exactly how rarely.

Attractive notion that my own preferred tech path influences this as compared to Smash's very different experiences.

Trouble is I have previously been happy with the idea that the various barb units which the game will generate over time is influenced by my current tech and the A1s' current tech.

Maybe what the disparity between my experience and Smash's suggests is that the A1s follow a reasonably predetermined tech path. That would mean that the divergencies between different human player's styles would be the main determinant of differences in the barb units generated in their respective games.

Can't say this is easy to reconcile with my own empiric evidence. Does sort of accord with some comments from Ming and others that I've noted in passing in these threads tho'.


An afterthought. Smash, do you typically start with 7 civs or less?
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited June 25, 2000).]

	25-06-2000 22:18									#26
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Almost always 7.There is technology table here http://sleague.apolyton.net/Guides/..._advances.shtml that tells the what techs effect what.There are several early techs that change sea based and hut barbarians.

	26-06-2000 05:04									#27
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I've had barb chariots appear in 3900BC. I certainly haven't had The Wheel, so unless some other bastard out there in the darkness has it, I'm not sure that early barb equipment is governed by techs.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	26-06-2000 06:48									#28
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I have had games where the civs had vastly different tech levels, along with lots of land-based spawn points. From observing which types of barbs appeared where, I conclude that it's based on the tech of the civ nearest the spawn point.

Note this dosen't mean the barbs can't wander off in the opposite direction...

	26-06-2000 08:05									#29
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At the beginning of the game barbs can be archers, horsemen, and I believe chariots as well, even if no one has the required techs for these. Makes sense in a way. Few people would gasp in horror as barbarian warriors were to throw themselves upon cities defended by fortified phalanxes.

	26-06-2000 08:09									#30
	Got spare money?

The type of barbarians units that appear are based solely on whether or not the trigger technology has been discovered. It works like wonders do, if any civ discovers the trigger tech the wonder is obsolete. Same for barbarians, if any civ discovers iron working the barbarians on triremes change from archers to legions.

For a full catalog of all the changes that effect randomly appearing barbarians and goody huts, I suggest you read the barbarian paper.