14-06-2001 20:29									#1
	just the basics Please Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ok so for the civ challanged,

what is the best way to take a city this is defended, the bad guys have musketeers pikemen and and catapults

I have at my deposal riflemen
cannonscool:
dragons. :

The walls are not a problem but I notices attaching in different order has a real bearing on how many servive

Jake

	14-06-2001 20:37									#2
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As a rabid aggressive rodent - just send in the dragoons ...

However, it is virtually essential that all your attacking units are veterans - this seemingly insignificant point is incredibly important and cannot be stressed enough!!!

If you dislike losing units in a city assault a powerful ploy is to send in a pre-worked Settler/Engineer to build a fortress under the opposing city's walls (preferably in a forrest, on a river or a hill or even a mountain) and pop a couple of strong (vet) defenders into it - the bad guys will waste several units just trying to get rid - then you wheel up the aforementioned dragoons ...

In summary - USE VETS

	14-06-2001 20:55									#3
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However, it is virtually essential that all your attacking units are veterans - this seemingly insignificant point is incredibly important and cannot be stressed enough!!!


Ok so say I was a cheepo skin flint and did not build a buncha barrects, Is there to turn them into vet (short of trying to get them killed and hoping they servive). What if I reset the home city to someplace with barrects,

That does explain a lot about the losses I took

	14-06-2001 21:02									#4
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I have not done any arithmetic and I'm assuming equality as far as vet status goes and that the city is on flatland but I'd expect any of your units to take out the antique units - pikemen and catapults. But I'd expect you to have unacceptable losses against musketeers behind walls.

If you reckon you have as many dragoons and riflemen as there are antique units plus something like a couple of cannon for each musketeer (and you're willing to lose a cannon or three) then attack with the canons first and then with the riflemen once it is pikemen defending and last with the dragoons against the catapults and any injured survivors of earlier combats.

If you don't have that degree of force available I would expect your riflemen to withstand at least one cat attack. They might start to be threatened if one had to withstand two cat attacks particularly if on flat land (no defensive bonus) and unentrenched. As long as you reckon the riflemen will hold off the cats then stack the cannons with the riflemen and then just take a couple of turns blasting away with the cannons.

Either way be sure your force of cannons will destroy the musketeers. If you come up short on this and just wound them (while depleting your cannons) they are going to recover next time and you'll have to limp away. Your dragoons will do better against the musketeers than the riflemen but I don't fancy either's chances (unless in overwhelming numbers) in view of those walls.

Your view about walls is eccentric. Received wisdom here would call for downing those walls with diplos or spies. There is an excellent thread available via the Great Library that gives you chapter and verse on what is needed. If you have vet spies it is no big deal to fell those walls. Even greenie spies will do pretty good (some becoming vets along the way). With diplos you'll take loses but they're less expensive units at 30 shields apiece than your combat troops.

Walls multiply those musketeers defence threefold. That makes a huge difference. Without walls you'll just blow them away with any of your guys. The cannons will gobble them up for sure - even vet against greenie I think.

There are those here who do the arithmetic. If one such posts take their opinion before mine.

Similarly I am not one of the boards really skilled warmongers. If DaveV or War4 or Makeo or Xin Yu post an answer forget that I've said owt.

	14-06-2001 21:19									#5
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Your view about walls is eccentric. Received wisdom here would call for downing those walls with diplos or spies.

Thanks East,

Yea I agree about the walls but I have an endless stream of diplomats I have been using to tare them down. So to sum it up I need some VETS and Dragoons far better them rifleguys.

cool I will go explain this to chanute and see if he agrees

jake

	14-06-2001 22:11									#6
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quote: Originally posted by jake03 Ok so say I was a cheepo skin flint and did not build a buncha barrects, Is there to turn them into vet (short of trying to get them killed and hoping they servive). What if I reset the home city to someplace with barrects,

In a word, no. Once you have built a non-vet unit (or Leo has changed one of your vets to a non-vet), the only way to gain veteran status is via combat.

In case you're playing 2x movement, cannons and riflemen become much more valuable. In 1x movement, I use dragoons almost exclusively until I have railroads and the cannons can move and attack. Mobility is often the key to victory. Dragoons can jump off a ship or follow the enemy's roads and capture a city before the opponent has time to react.

One minor correction to EST's post: I view city walls as a 2x improvement, rather than 3x, because walled units do not receive the fortification bonus (so walls change them from 1.5x to 3x).

	14-06-2001 22:21									#7
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I agree with the plan to fortify one of your good defensive units next to the city. Unless he's on grassland or plains, he should survive a catapult attack. Once in place, roll in the welcome wagon to blow away the musketeers. With several veteran cannon, you won't even need to get rid of the walls first.

One additional comment: If you fail to kill the last defender, the AI will rush build a second defender that turn. Make sure you have enough bad guys to take out 2 defenders each turn. The dragoons should be able to take out any heavily damaged units, even behind walls. Good luck!

SG, I see you've taken a liking to the RAR description. Maybe you could request a special rabid rodent smily...

	15-06-2001 10:55									#8
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Obtain some information about the city by sending in a diplomat to snoop around. It may seem like a waste of 30 shields but military intelligence (some may consider this an oxymoron ) is important! Once you know the total force defending the garrison, it is easier to make calculations about the necessary strike power.

Note the city improvements, look for a barracks or coastal fortress. Barracks means the units are vets so re-calculate the battle odds.

If the city is coastal use a navy as the effect of city walls is negated. Vet Ironclads will exterminate pikemen - two or three in a turn. They will take care of most musketeers, but be prepared for losses if they are vets fortified on a river. The sea attack is superior because your units can remain adjacent to the city without being threatened by land units. The AI uses a navy worse than armies, but does have a liking for coastal forts.

-----------------------

SG(2)

	15-06-2001 14:00									#9
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Surprisingly no one has yet mentioned Sun Tzu's - not only does this make all new ground forces vet, but any combat success makes the winning unit a vet (including naval forces!) Depending upon your preferred nation size Sun Tzu's can be a more cost effective solution than barracks - the only drawback is that it does not offer the same healing advantages ...

	15-06-2001 16:59									#10
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My first choice is to consider bribing. If they're not in Democracy and you can afford it, why not? Failing that, definitely eyeball the city with a diplo or spy. Know your enemy! If they have walls, those suckers gotta go if the city is well defended. The comment about build a fortress right next to the city is a good suggestion. Also, build roads/RRs right up to it if possible. When it's all said and done, send in the 2x movement units first using one of their movement factors. Save one move in case the city pops up some partisan. That way, you can move your attackers into the safety of the city after the battle.

	18-06-2001 21:23									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Surprisingly no one has yet mentioned Sun Tzu's - not only does this make all new ground forces vet, but any combat success makes the winning unit a vet (including naval forces!) Depending upon your preferred nation size Sun Tzu's can be a more cost effective solution than barracks - the only drawback is that it does not offer the same healing advantages ...

Wow thanks,

	18-06-2001 21:30									#12
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In summary - USE VETS [/QUOTE]

wow What a differance

RJ

	18-06-2001 22:27									#13
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quote: Originally posted by jake03 wow What a difference

Ah, glasshopper, you are starting to perceive the beginnings of wisdom ...

	22-06-2001 23:49									#14
	Re: just the basics Please Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by jake03 I have at my deposal riflemen cannonscool: dragons. : The walls are not a problem but I notices attaching in different order has a real bearing on how many servive Jake

First off, I say "Send in the dragons! Damn the damsels in distress!". Just kidding. The important thing to remember is that their best defensive unit is the one that fights. If you send in the dragoons first, they will fight against pikemen, since the pikemen act like strength 2x2x3=12 defenders against mounted units. Goodbye dragoons. If you send in the riflemen, their 5 attack strength will be useless against the musketeers' 3x3=9 defence. The cannons will have a chance. As was suggested, use cannons to kill the musketeers. Then, use riflemen against the pikemen, since the pikemen get only strength 2x3=6 against them. On second thought, maybe you better use even more cannons! Then, you can use the dragoons to mop up the pitiful catapults. Remember to keep your Dragoons/Cannons on the same square as your Riflemen to protect them. Also, if there is a mountain/hill/forest/swamp/jungle square beside the city, put everyone on that square for the defence bonus. If not, use a rivered plains or grassland square. If there's not even that, curse your bad luck.

	23-06-2001 00:53									#15
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Pikemen actually do not receive the pike bonus against dragoons or cavalry. This applies only when attacked by a unit with move 2, hp 1 - those two units have 2 hit points. Even so, behind walls, they will still be hard to beat.

	23-06-2001 01:29									#16
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Didn't know that. Thanks, Marquis.

	23-06-2001 09:43									#17
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gee you guys really know too much !!! i know i read al lthat pikemen v dragoons before, but i can nver remember it when i start attacking , i just usually send in the vet crusaders, they do a pretty good job on most things

	23-06-2001 14:03									#18
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dragoons are a nice unit to attack with as the board has so graciously pointed out. However, i prefer calvalry for a few reasons.

1 calvalry start out with an attack of 8 compared to an attack of 5 for dragoons. Make those units vets and the attack ratio increases even higher.

2 more than likely somewhere in your battle, the defenses the ai throws up will increase. Usually this means and upgrade from pikemen to muskets. No big deal with calvalry. They routinely crunch muskets in the same manner as dragoons crunch pre gunpowder units.

3 With leos and sun tzu (which you should have against the ai) your upgrades are free of charge and will likely take place en route to the front or during the war. That green calvalry is still better than the vet dragoon 8 - 7.5

4 not that i recommend it, but with calvalry you rarely need dips to take out walls. in fact with leos and a few cannons upgraded to artillery, you can crush anything prior to alpine troops on good defensive terrain.

The notion of preworked settlers is a great idea. I usually use this tactic if i am looking to take a capital which has a wonder that i want..... like the pyramids, and a direct assault might cause disorder amongst my own troops.

	24-06-2001 20:45									#19
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i tend to skip over cavalry , if i get that far advanced i usually not far from tanks/ howies so i ssend them in to wipe out the AI..

	25-06-2001 05:34									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Rasputin i tend to skip over cavalry , if i get that far advanced i usually not far from tanks/ howies so i ssend them in to wipe out the AI..

I would never skip too quickly over Cavalry ... vet Crusaders should do the job most of the time.

-------------

SG(2)

	26-06-2001 01:51									#21
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All the ideas above are great.... I have one slight thing to add....

Destroy all the happiness improvements in the city, next turn when it goes into disorder bribe it, much much cheaper that way.