28-06-2000 19:35									#61
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jschwagle - answering in reverse order: SSC = super science city. Ideally, it has Colussus, Copernicus, Isaac Newton, library, university, and LOTS of trade arrows.

I rarely build barracks. Sun Tzu's Academy is great for producing vets; if you're far enough ahead in tech, vet status doesn't matter much (try using Dragoons or Cavalry against those same Phalanxes). Some of your units will become vets by virtue of winning. Two things to remember when attacking: show up with more units than you think you'll need, and don't be afraid to take some losses.

Pyramids seem to be the favorite wonder of the AI, so you have to build it early if you're going to build it. In the early game, when you're expanding, rapid city growth may cause disorder at the higher difficulty levels. You'll still find some people who swear by the Pyramids, though.

	28-06-2000 19:37									#62
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a lot of people here put a low value on pyramids, mainly because on diety,happiness is a problem even for size one cities depending on how many you have. Since happiness problems only increase with larger cities for the most part, they shun the pyramids to stunt their growth until they are ready for it. if you cna handle the unhappiness, feel free to build them I do.

As for those that play offensively, most swear by the barracks (and Sun Tsu's War Accadamy)

And diplomats tend to go for easier targets more than harder targets, so city walls will be one of the last targets (people will send whole armies at cities to get down walls) I personally would rather wait and just incite a revolt - i get all the structures in tact, along with the defending units.

SSC = Super Science City - usually with several of the science and trade wonders and lots of trade-producing terrain. in OCC (one city challenge), people will turn their one city into a SSC and often produce staggering amounts of science.

	28-06-2000 20:20									#63
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jschwagle4685,

I've found that if I send multiple diplomats into a city on the same turn, only one will sabotage production. This means that once one of the diplomats sabotages production, none of the other diplomats entering the same city on the same turn will waste their time on production. They'll all try for real city improvements. I think the subsequent diplomats won't try to sabotage production because there are no shields left in the box to sabotage. The previous spy already sabotaged them all and there won't be any more until the beginning of the next turn. Someone here may have encountered a quirky situation where production was sabotaged while the city had no shields in the box, but it's never happened to me. Note: This also works for spies sabotaging a random improvement "using her judgement".

Much like yours, my diplomats always seem to sabotage production if they're the only one sabotaging the city that turn. As SCG mentioned, diplomats tend to go for crappy stuff first and do the walls only if there's nothing else to sabotage. It'll take multiple diplomats to take down the walls (but it's well worth it, in my opinion).

Inciting revolts is a spy's best ability. I'm trying to wean myself off revolting/subverting because it's so powerful, efficient, and effective.

	28-06-2000 20:57									#64
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actually, they will continue to sabotage production, even after one has already succeded that turn. And they will always go after production if there are no structures to tear down, so sending 5 diplomats into a city with nothing in it will just saobtage production over and over again

	29-06-2000 00:21									#66
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Campo:

Five diplomats is 150 shields. For only 10 shields more you can have four additional elephants, knights or crusaders in your attck; include catapaults if you don't mind the slow movement. For the same number of shields you can have three additional dragoons in your attack. Of course diplomats do not have any per turn costs: either in shields or unhappiness.

A diplomat that tries to sabotage a city is lost for sure at 30 shields a pop. The advantage of putting fighting units to risk is that upon capturing the city you do not lose the improvements (other than temples and cathedrals). If the city has walls you don't lose more than one unit of population. That means the city can soon be going strong and creating new units of whatever kind you deem necessary.

Perhaps I am missing something because I don't see why losing diplomats is preferable to losing fighting units. I always play against the AI so that might be a difference.

	29-06-2000 11:09									#68
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There are times when the walls must be destroyed and occasions when the attacking force has the power to blast through them. The free intelligence the spy provides to make this decision is crucial. Before spies, I believe it is sometimes worth spending a diplomat to look at the place. It is worth knowing whether a city has a barracks or a coastal fortress. Once you have the information about the defences/defenders - the rest is mathmatics -based on the troops at your command.
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	29-06-2000 14:02									#69
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As an intermediate level Diety player I've recently decided to try something new for me. Normally, I'm spread all over the map and my cities get built only where I think I have good terain and then micromanage them extensively. I've only managed to get to AC once on Diety and because I prefer a 75 x 133 map with resetting civs I have never even come close to conquering the world in a regular SP game.

What I decided to do was go for a modified ICS and get industrialization as early as possible. Instead of looking for the best terain I started filling my continent with cities with minimal or no overlap and used roads to tranport my warriors quickly to build HG and Col in the same grassy coastal city. I never hesitate to buy a needed wonder if I can't build it faster than the AI, even if I have to sell things to do it. As soon as I get transports from Industrialization I fill them with caravans/freights and run them to the Japanese or some other perfectionist civ with high pop cities. Run the whole boatload into the same city and even Hides can get you a decent amount of cash and science. If you have several transports you can repeat as soon as you can fill them up. I haven't made it to AC yet on this game, but by doing the same thing with a boatload of dips and spies I'm keeping up with the AI and keeping them convinced to leave me alone.

Ken

	29-06-2000 16:01									#70
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Love to read of those boatloads of caravans, Ken. Spend some time in the counting house studying their accounts and I predict your colonists will soon be tramping about on AC with some regularity - no doubt trying to flog some of those hides to the natives up there.

Jschagle. Attitude towards the pyramids is partly influenced by attitude towards WLT-Ds. Let it be whispered only very gently but there is a school of thought which views dependance on WLT-Ds as, well, less than challenging shall we say. A dude who subscribed to such a view (and who likes to build a plenitude of cities) might well think well of the conical-shaped Wonder. One who likes to celebrate often and long will not build the pyramids and indeed, will not routinely build granaries either.

edward. If, mayhap, you are playing on one of the lower levels you do right not to put all your eggs in the subversion basket. It remains a powerful tactic at all levels but is insufficient, by itself, to guarrantee success on deity. In the early stages gold is in shortish supply and there are many calls on the treasury. Later on you can get rich Lord, rich, rich, rich in both fundy and democracy but both have their problems. Timing good subversions when in democracy is a subject to which, on and off, I have devoted some attention (without having progressed much beyond the first step on the road to wisdom). Incidentally, there is a phase in the game when defending against subversion by the A1 is a matter requiring attention. Apologies if you are a regular deity player who has refined subversion techniques beyond my humble level. But if so GIVE WITH THE HOT SUBVERSION TIPS!!

jpk. Interesting post. Must ponder.


PS In re the matter of subversion, I have read that approaching the same city from different squares produces different figures for the cost of inciting revolt. But I have so far been unable to demonstrate this in any game where I have tested it out. The stuff I read states confidently that the phenomenon is not a bug but I am wondering if that turned out to be wrong and it got patched. Anyone know about this?

	29-06-2000 16:24									#71
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EST - bribe cost of a city is based on a calculation involving distance to the capital city of the city's owner. The distance is calculated from the square where the spy/diplo starts, rather than the city square. I think the capital distance is constant if the enemy is Communist, so then it wouldn't matter which square you started from.

	29-06-2000 18:24									#73
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Catapults are good, but as you say just so slow to move. At that point in the game there's often a lot of un-roaded terrain to cover.

My favorite early attack army is cannons and a few musketeers. Get them early enough and you shouldn't have to worry about the city walls. As I approach Metallurgy I try to spare a few settlers to road the way to nearby AI civs. I enjoy my early conquering army even more than the later one.

	30-06-2000 09:28									#74
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Campo:

Whether it is better to use diplomats or extra attacking units depends upon the situation. Your example of knights against pikeman is a good example of what can go wrong. If I recall correctly a knight's attack value is 4 and a fortified pikeman's defense value is 6. There might be a difference in hit points, I don't remember. This is before city walls. Even if your knight is a veteran the attack value is only equal to the defense value of a nonveteran pikeman, again this is before the effect of city walls is introduced. When attacking I think it is important to have an attack value significantly higher than the defense value of any likely defender. This is one reason why I like to develop a significant technological lead.

Once pikemen appear in quantity, knights should retire to the round table.

	30-06-2000 09:38									#75
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Campo,
Are you actually getting cannons and musketeers before the AI throws up any walls? When I say early I mean first-tier units, ie. cats, legions, horsies, etc. I've found that if the AI intends to put up walls in its larger cities that it will do so far before Gunpowder... in my experience at least. IMO, unless you're just taking out an early neighbor, 1-mov't units are just too slow. I always use 2-mov't units for conquest unless I'm in Fundie and plan on bribing after the capital falls. Anything else will simply be too slow, roads or no.

jpk,
I agree with you in that Knights should leave the battle scene when a lot of pikemen show up. It seems to me that, for early strikes, one should shoot directly for Knights or Crusaders and not meddle with anything else. For example, if you want to attack with Knights, move right up that path. Don't dabble in other techs to get Wonders, for instance. Personally, I enjoy the defense factor of the Knight but enjoy Mike's Chapel ever more, so if I want to attack someone early I'm going to use Crusaders since they take no extra research. IMO, the happy-wonder path is better when you've fenced off any opponents, and the warrior path if you've got peeps in your backyard.

Q...
Would you rather have Mike's Chapel + Crusaders or Sun Tzu + Knights? Gotta love both but my game plan will definately dictate the decision. I'd choose ST+Knights for pure war, MC+Crusaders to clear out a couple civs before shooting up the tech ladder for a better unit.

... my take on attack & defense unit-stats ...
When in conquer mode (aiming to take out a whole civ, not just one city), if I had my choice, I'd always choose Legion over Catapults and Knights over Crusaders.
"Why take the lower attack value when conquest is the goal?"
It's simple in my mind... the doubled defense factor is proportionally better than the smaller (relatively) attack advantage. In my experience, Legion and Knights are going to live longer making them a better value. That extra point or two isn't going to make the difference in an appropriately executed attack.
"Well, that's easily fixable. Just pair it with a good defensive unit."
If you attempt to do this, you've just hugely complicated your attack. Coordinating one unit type is infinately easier than two. Think about it... now you have to produce and balance two types of units whilst keeping them together on the battlefield. ...and good luck keeping a defensive unit with your Crusaders.
Just my $.02

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[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 29, 2000).]

	29-06-2000 23:35									#76
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East Street Trader,

You're correct, I play on Emperor level. No deity secrets for revolts and subversions to reveal, I fear.

In the past I've played the peaceful AC scientist. Recently I've been trying to conquer the world. A VERY different strategy is required. It's like a whole new game.

In my limited warmongering experience, I'll have to agree with Hawkx9. Regardless of cost calculations, attack factors, etc. I can't stand having to trudge one movement units across the map. Whether or not it's a better strategy, I just find a horde of knights to be better entertainment.

	30-06-2000 04:41									#77
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Edward - That is exactly why I like knights on those rare occassions when I attack. 2 movement, 4 attack, and 2 defense. A pair of knights, with a dip moving along at the same speed is very nice. You can usually keep the units on defensive terrain approaching a city, and the defensive power becomes 4 or 6.

	30-06-2000 05:59									#78
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Ah... cavebear,
... you've just hit upon something I love to utilize but have yet to post about... combining Diplomats with Blitzkreiging Crusaders. They are the perfect assaulting defense. (how's that for an oxymoron?) They can bribe themselves and their respective platoon out of a bind whilst utilizing 2-mov't speed. Excellent.

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[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 29, 2000).]

	01-07-2000 05:00									#80
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Hawke, I'm not confident about the Crusaders, even with a dip. Neither has any defensive power. Their defense is still "one", and that isn't much protection.

I agree that the 5 attack is great, but someone who defends with Archers and Chariots is going to make mincemeat of the Crusader/Dip force.

I often have an Archer in the city and another 1 square away on a mountain. With that, your Crusaders are in range of a 3 attack whether at the city gates or one square away. And the Archers never leave the city or the mountain when they attack, so you can't hit them with a second wave of Crusaders on level ground.

	01-07-2000 05:07									#81
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Campo, I hope you mangage to have a fortified defensive unit with those cannons. Else, when they show up at my city gate (with their one square move), I'll eliminate them with an Archer or Chariot and I will never even have to leave my city. If there is a mountain next to my city (which would give a cannon a chance of survival) I will already have a defensive unit fortified there.

	02-07-2000 19:11									#82
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Cavebear, the diplo is there to bribe your archers on top of the mountain. then you can't attack the crusaders (with much success) because of the mountain, and then he has free reign on your city. On top of a mountain diplos and crusaders have a defense of three, which i think equals the attack of the archers and chariots.

	04-07-2000 14:47									#84
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Just a small point - noone has yet mentioned that naval bombardment does not reduce the target city's population and is therefore a preferred method of reducing coastal cities.
The Super Ironclad Strategy is to be recommended to anyone who has yet to try it ...


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	05-07-2000 09:31									#85
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Sabrecat, you can bribe 2 units on a square? And you have enough gold to bribe anyway when I have the more advanced Govt (and gold)?

Campo, if you have musketeers when I have only archers, the game is over anyway... Usually

	05-07-2000 09:25									#86
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SG1, problem with coastal bombardment is that a vet musketeer in a coastal fortress with barracks will eat up a non-vet destroyer and once there are Alpine troops avaiable even cruisers get beat. If I have 4 or 5 vet marines behind a coastal fortress and backed up by a barracks your battle ships will be toast also.

Ken

	05-07-2000 10:51									#87
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Ken - If the age of Alpine Troops has dawned, then the age of espionage is close. It is easier for the spy to destroy the coastal fortress than the walls. The AI does not seem to give the coastal fortress too much priority - even in capitals!
(The Vet Musketeer will often not need the coastal defenses to win against a green destroyer)

To have a serious navy all ships should be vets. An undocumented feature of Sun Tzu's Academy is that all ships reach vet status after a first kill. On all maiden voyages boats should look for easy targets, before the serious work of city destruction begins.

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SG (2)

	06-07-2000 03:10									#88
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Cavebear, i gotcha now, i didn't get the right picture in my head, you CAN'T bribe stacked units . You're still assuming that you are leaps and bounds ahead of the compitition, and in most mp games, you're not.

	06-07-2000 16:30									#89
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Ken Hinds... the trick to using the veteran iron clad strategy is to use it in that limited window you get BEFORE costal fortresses can be built. In SP games, you should be far enough ahead of the AI that it will be a very large window of opportunity.
But even in MP games, it can be an effective strategy if you are behind in the happiness wonder race or the workshop/SOL race. Once you realize you are going to be beat to those, you go the naval route. I have used it with success, and it has been used against me... right Xin

	08-07-2000 02:16									#90
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Campo, one of the problems with moving defensive units along with cannons is that they only get one move as well, so they can't fortify on the stacked square. That will work better when you get knights, though.

Were you pre or post knights? Knights with cannons are a good group to move around, but it is slow. You might want to just try a few knights; they cost the same as cannons, and the mobility is a plus.

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