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Hawkx9
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Moorhead, MN, US
Jun 2000
time: 05:12
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I know, I know. Most y'all who post on this board are very much 'experts,' but not being one of them, I wanted to start a thread for those of us who can't beat Diety/Raging-Hordes with one arm tied behind our back (so to speak).  Guys, remember when Emporer used to give you a challenge?  Anyways, since I just recently returned to this fantastic game, (just bought ToT for twenty bucks) I missed out on a lot of the "intermediate" stratgey discussions. Yes, I've read thru the archives and strat faq's, but it's not quite the same. SO, for those of you who cater more to King or Emporer, let's have a discussion. (all the experts out there, feel free to jump in at any time and help out your underlings)
To start with, I prefer playing on King (maybe Emporer soon) with map settings of Normal Map, Small Land Mass, Archipelago, Restless Tribes. Why Restless Tribes? Because I find Raging Hordes to be more of a distraction than anything. Yeah, I know it leads to a lower score, but hey, I'm playing for fun here. I prefer a normal sized map with small land mass because it leaves a respectable distance between civs yet doesn't allow the AI to lay down 50 cities. What a pain.
Okay, onto the strat discussion. Disclaimer: I don't pretend to have pioneered any of the following. It's just a collection of strats I've found that seems to work nicely together, with some of my own style thrown in. On the whole, it won't be anything new, but hey...
Roughly, the strategy is this: small number of cities, early Republic backed by Hanging Gardens to max science and cities @ 8-12, bee-line to Democracy, build SoL, switch to Fundamentalism, rule the World. In this strat, I do NOT construct a SSC. <GASP> That's right. With this strat, it's not going to be needed.
Laying Stake:
Since I play with a small land mass, I don't usually run around hut-tipping very long. If a hut is within the initial viewable area I will go for it. Other than that, I'm looking for a non-shield producing grassland on the coast with at least one special (whale being the best, obviously) in sight. Of corse, rivers make the best city sites, so this is the only time I'll break my "always on the coast" rule.
Exploration:
After discussing this with many of you, you're right. Warriors are the best initial explorers. They are cheap, plain and simple. Two of them from my initial city and one or two from my second usually does the trick. If I find units that assign themselves to a city, I'll send the warriors home for disbansion or assign them to a newly made city. 2 mov't units continue to explore while 1 mov't units (archers) are sent home for fortification.
Expansion:
My # of cities goal is 6. Why 6? Because, with my playing style, I've found that six cities is the optimal number in which I can build up an adequate infrastructure before the early switch to Republic. These first six cities will be the backbone of my civilization. As far as city sites go, I try and keep my cities tight without overlaping radii or leaving many open squares, but I don't obsess about it. If one or two squares overlap, it's not going make a big difference in the long run. I want to make sure I grab all the best land offered and if this means overlapping or leaving a couple of spaces open, so be it. With the exception of the first two cities, each city will produce a phalanx and 3 settlers until six cities have been founded and one settler is supported by each. The first two cities will produce explorers and wait on the phalanx until researched. Since I try to have at least one trade special within all my city radii, I wait on road construction until all six have been founded. Then my extra settlers go to work building the roadways, connecting each city.
Research Path:
Of course, Monarchy is our initial goal, but if a direct path is not offered (which is usually the case) I pick up Bronze Working and Pottery along the way. Pottery is a must because Hanging Gardens will be needed for the early Republic switch. After the above are obtained, I shoot for Republic, Philosophy, and Monotheism. After that, it's Invention and Democracy. As soon as The Republic is researched I switch imediately if ready. When's "ready?" If my infrastructure is complete. Which leads me to...
Infrastructure:
After my capital has produced its third settler and has a good defensive unit, I switch to Hanging Gardens (or some other available Wonder) before anything else. I must have Hanging Garden for the early Republic switch, but it shouldn't be a problem if you start on it early. Once all cities have their respective settler and defensive unit produced, each city constructs a temple and marketplace. By this time, Hanging Gardens is usually up, so my Capital does the same. After the improvements are complete, all cities, with the exception of those on a opponent's border, make caravans for future WoWs.
[NOTE: The opponent-bording city/cities find a good mountain choke-point, setup a fortification, and start buying some NONE units if possible. Peace must be kept with any nearby civ or a drawn-out war will insue, delaying our Republic switch, and that's not what we want. Kiss their ass by giving them anything they demand except for techs that will give them better units or make available WoWs that you have yet to construct. Ultimately it won't matter because retribution will be had. They will be the first civ we annihilate. ]
The Republic should be coming soon, if it hasn't already, so the switch is made. It's nice to have Aqueducts and Harbors up by this time but it isn't really necessary. Now jack the luxuries and max out your cities. (I love watching my pop skyrocket. ) At this point, your cities are big enough to receive a substaintial trade bonus for routes so feel free to set some up. Between this point and SoL, construct as many useful WoWs as possible with help of caravan dedication. Mike's Chapel, The Library, Leo, and Sun Tzu are particularly important for happiness, tech acquisition, and military prowess.
Party Time:
Once SoL goes up, you're free to switch to Fundie or Commie and go to town. Crusaders will probably be the unit of choice at this point because they require no additional research, but feel free to advance up the tree as desired before switching to a war gov't. Whatever point you switch, an 80% tax rate should be a nice back for your war effort.
Well, that's it.  It's not really intended to be followed step-by-step, and I probably left something out, but you get the idea. Let me know what you think!
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Peace
[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 15, 2000).]
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Advirus
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Elizabethtown, PA
Jan 2000
time: 05:12
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I like this thread. I would read these posts from people who are able to play at Deity and land on AC by 1000 AD and think, How the hell.... I tried some of the strategies, but I just couldn't get the hang of it. I finally gave up and pretty much stick to King with an occasional foray into Emperor. I'll try your strategy and let you know how I do. Thanks!
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KhanMan
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Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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Hawk-Interesting, you and I seem to have opposite playing styles in mp (though, I'm hardly an expert).
I tend towards large, continents, wet worlds, since I prefer a land game to naval island-hopping any day.
I prefer horsemen to warrios, for the simple fact that, although the cost to build 1 horse equals that of 2 warriors, the upkeep will often be too much for me, since I want every shield possible free for settlers and such.
I tend to go Bronze-Horse-Monarchy, and, although I used to spend a lot of time in Republic, now I'm staying more in monarchy until SoL, demanding tribute of all (often about 1000 gold from six civs, every 7 turns or so), with a large army.
The reason I like this strategy is that, in the worst case scenario, I'm against all six civs, and they conquer half my empire, I can STILL battle back to win militarily, if not through AC.
This works for me about 80% of the time on King (prefered level, though I occasionally play at deity or emperor). I restart bad starting positions, but, to me, the fun part is how you play, not win percentages and all that...
-KhanMan of the Sayen
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East Street Trader
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London, United Kingdom
Jun 2000
time: 05:12
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I often used to restart bad positions too but stopped a little while back. In the result I get more varied games and am having more fun. A spectacular early loss or two to the barbs/A1 may also be good for the soul. (No, on second thoughts IT SUCKS).
I don't agree with SG(1) about happiness in deity. I reckon your basic strat will get you over that (altho', yes, do get some help from your honest traders - one particularly helpful thing is they will keep your income high enough to stay in production rich Monarchy until you have made your preparations to cope with the unhappiness which losing martial law brings). Kings may toady up to their barons but its their merchants they love really.
No, its the hideous production advantages given to the A1s, plus the fact that they will ferociously gang up on you once you are militarily supreme (in combination with a handicap imposed onto your research while you stay ahead on that front) which hurts. As it stands your strat won't get you past these things.
Their basic production advantage is bad enough but they get a further big bonus the minute you hit "supreme". I've seen a comparison in these threads of the no. of shields required by you and by the A1 at that point. Don't remember the figure but the A1 needs something like only a third or a quarter of the number you do.
When you make the switch you might want to know that 1750 is a bad date. After that date persuading any of the A1s not to hate you is very hard. And they start swopping techs like there's no to-morrow.
So, I'm afraid if you haven't crippled ALL of them by then, your tech lead will go in the space of just a few turns and, because of their production advantages, they'll start throwing hefty units at you like mad. It's not unusual to get the bad news that the b..... mongols have got mobile warfare and to have the first tanks at your gates on the same turn. And at sea its worse, battleships - ugghh!
But the thing is. The masochism is lovely. Come on in and try it. You'll LOVE refining your strat to get round these things.
And at that point .... well "trade rules, OK!". (IMHO, of course)
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited June 17, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited June 17, 2000).]
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Hawkx9
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Moorhead, MN, US
Jun 2000
time: 05:12
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KhanMan,
Yeah, I realize that Archipelago forces the inclusion of sea strats/considerations, but I think this is more towards what the game was intended to be like. Before playing with this map setting, I hadn't ever built a water unit other than a transport! I think that says something. The fact that the designers bothered to include all those 'extra' sea units goated me into trying an 'island happy' map. It's not bad. Granted, it's a little cumbersome at times, but I'm starting to realize the value of naval assaults (ie. vet Iron Clads) and landings. Using transports and their kin to move units to the front, instead of waiting for a road to go up or tretching over unknown territory with my Crusaders, seems a more effect use of time (but it depends on the map settings, of course).
I like making the early jump to Republic because it allows you to max out your cities w/ WLT*D. This combined with the arrow bonus gives you a great burst for a quick Democracy for SoL. This suits my style of play because I don't enjoy maintaining a large amount of cities - it's just too tedious for me. (Once I start conquering and taking over cities, I probably hit auto build faster than I should. )
As far as the Horseman vs. Warrior debate... I used to prefer Horseman as well, but losing them made me cringe because of the time and effort I had to put into making 'em - I had to research the tech AND spend twice as much as a warrior. Having to research the extra tech is the bigger problem of the two. The tech itself really serves no purpose - it's not on a path to Monarchy and it doesn't make available a great unit and Wonder (as does Bronze Working). The support problem really isn't as big as it seems. If you tip a hut and the new unit assigns itself to your town, simply send the warrior home for disbansion (gets back some of those lot shields) or reassignment (don't need to produce another explorer from second city). Also, if you find an archer in a hut, you save the time of having to produce a phalanx for your capital.
East Street Trader,
After playing my above strat a little more, I'm finding that you're right. The tech advantage dwindles after time and you're left fighting an opponent who's technologically equal but has a production bonus - not a good place to be. So to modify the strategy above, I've been thinking of a few changes. I really missed the SSC, and as Smash said eariler, you don't really need Hanging Gardens to pull off an early Republic. (It makes it much easier but isn't necessary.) So, instead of the Hanging Gardens, Colossus is produced. (I find that I can't get more than one of the early Wonders w/o bending over backwards; besides, Colossus lasts longer and is great for trade routes.) Now, since I'm going to have a SSC, The Library shouldn't be needed. Instead, I will research all desired 'stream-line' techs and, thru conquest, steal those which are on dead-end branches. My race to SoL is the same but instead of switching to Fundie permanently, I'll switch temporarily to reach some pre-determined goal. ie. cash amount or destruction of an opposing civ. After the goal is reached, I'll switch back to Democracy, shoot up the ladder until I feel I have the advantage again and then switch back to Fundie. The whole point of this being that Fundie is the best gov't for cash acquisition and war, while Democracy is the best for tech.
What do you think?
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Peace
[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 17, 2000).]
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quote:
Originally posted by rah on 06-16-2000 07:39 AM
My advice is to play deity and practice getting your butt kicked. Playing at the lower levels just teaches you bad habits that you will have to unlearn to beat the game at deity.
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Exactly. I was a wimpy prince level player, who was too scared to play diety until I came to apolyton. I lurked around and read DaveV's strategy. Then I decided, Hey, I can do that too. So I played diety, skipping king and emp completely, and I lost. I played again and lost. I played a third time, and won by a landslide with an 1807 landing  . This time it was after I had read more strategy from smash and ming. Anyway, I spent over a year on cheiftan, learning bad strategies. Not good. So I have come up with a rule that I was too late to follow, but I still can tell to other people. Once you win twice in a row on a level, move up. No matter how many times you lose, stay on that level and do not move back. Now go play diety, and win .
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East Street Trader
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London, United Kingdom
Jun 2000
time: 05:12
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Hawkx9
Having just scraped myself up off the floor after totally cocking up OCC11 (which I now see certain kind posters characterised as a nice easy challenge which any newbie OCCer should have no trouble with - HA HA, I don't think!) I'm full of doubt that anything I say is worth attention.
But what the heck.
Agree that luck is the main determinant on early wonders. I always get the one I first go for but whether I'm going to get others too depends on unseen events (altho' you can keep an early eye on the A1s in the top 5 cities screen - some of the risk of over-commiting to early wonders is reduced if you see, for example, that your second/third city is in better looking nick than some of their capitals).
Not sure it matters TOO much which one you go for. Like I'm currently saying to my daughter, it's not so much whether you pass or fail the damn exam it's more a question of the energy you apply to the situation you're in afterwards that matters.
But your partial conversion to trade arrows as a means to combat unhappiness suggests to me that you're thinking is gaining in sophistication. Trade arrows do a lot for you and your control of the gold/research/happiness balance allows you to respond to events. The Gardens are assuredly nice to have (especially on a big map where you're going to found more cities) but they are a touch crude by comparison.
Yes, Collosus carries on bringing in the tourists for a good long time. You'll find yourself putting off researching flight sometimes just to keep those trade arrows flowing in. Noticing that feature in Paul's OCC strategy is one of the things which gave the strategy a familiar feeling. (Hadn't realised the micromanagement would be so fierce tho' - I mean, hell, there's only one city to manage, right!).
But now we get to the point where I have stuff to learn from you butt kickers (intermediate or advanced). What I almost invariably do to cope with the A1s production advantages is to encourage them to immolate themselves on prepared defensive positions. They love to oblige. I build good defensive frontier cities and also occupy good mountain/hills choke points, build forts and watch them waste a big chunk of that production advantage turn after turn. You need little or no tactical nouse to do this. Later on I might buy up the cities of any serious competitor.
Better trading plus good defense will turn your strategy (whether HG based or Collosus based)into a winner in Deity if you are content to win via the space race. Played well you can also take the buying in of cities to the point where conquest is easy too (militarily challenged as I am I have to wait for howies to do this). You would probably need to learn a bit about combatting the research handicap by giving away tech as a final piece to the strategic jigsaw in order to be confident of ALWAYS winning or as near always as makes no matter).
BUT. Without ever having played a game I am confident that this won't work in MP. Human opponents won't just immolate themselves on my defences. Even without the A1s production advantage they will just trot out their favourite offensive tactics and KICK MY BUTT.
So I'm going to study up on the phase of your game where you go fundie and the vets (seemingly horsemen of one kind or another or ironclads - a unit I never build) roll. When I think up my first offensive tactic I reckon that'll be the time to try MP.
Offensive tactical tips very welcome.
If the learning curve in MP is as steep as it seems likely to be in this bloody OCC thing I'll then start a thread on "Masochistic Tendencies Observed In The Advance Of Civilisation".
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Hawkx9
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Moorhead, MN, US
Jun 2000
time: 05:12
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Keeping with theme of this thread...
With the insistence of everyone that early trade routes are a necessary part of a winning strategy (and they're right, of course), I'm going to add some modifications to my strat that began this thread. [NOTE: I will only discuss strategies up to the construction of the SoL, at which point personal playing style, more than anything, will determine the outcome of any particular game.] Warning: the following will probably be apparent to those experts out there, but keep in mind I am not one of you. King/Emperor is my level of choice as of now and this strat is geared toward informing others of similar skill. (In other words, these are things I wish someone would have told me a long time ago. )
"How the heck do I find a good city with which to trade…?”
This was always a question of mine. I've been a fan of Marco Polo for some time now and it seemed the logical solution. It's a fantastic wonder. Since it gives you an embassy with every other civ, you're free from having to roam the map in search of them. Also, enlisting a diplo and actually getting him to the other civ unharmed is a challenge in itself in the early stages of the game. The embassy tells you everything: how much gold and what techs they have (e.g. are you going to be fighting phalanx, pikemen, or musketeers?), in what gov't they are currently, and most importantly - allows you to trade with them so you can get their maps! This allows you to know exactly what city you will be sending your caravans without ever having yet constructed a trireme.
“What about those damned barbarians…?”
Now that we know where we'll be sending our caravans, we need to assure safe passage. (Nothing is worse than losing a boatful of camel.  ) We'll accomplish this by constructing another underrated wonder - the Lighthouse. Think about it... Would you rather have a green trireme that moves 3 and must hug land OR have a vet who moves 4 and doesn't have to worry about being lost at sea?? Vets will survive a battle, more often than not, so you won't lose those precious caravans. And the 4 mov’t, along with not having to hug land, will probably shave 5 turns off of its travel time. Also, the Lighthouse makes available faster moving vet Ironclads (money), which I will talk more about later.
Goals…
Here’s a quick, step-by-step, rundown of my new set of goals:
· Lay stake on a nice, non-shield producing grassland
· Exploration w/ Warriors – 2 from capital, 1-2 from 2nd city
· Each city produces a phalanx and 3 settlers until 6 cities are founded and each supports one settler.
· SSC begins construction of Colossus while 4 supporter cities produce caravans. Sixth city will control border.
· Each supporter city produces enough caravans for Lighthouse and MP construction.
· Once Lighthouse and MP are complete, produce triremes for travel and 3 caravans per city for routes and send them to a far away capital.
· After infrastructure completion (temple and marketplace), the switch to Republic is made. (Should happen before trade routes go up.)
A note on trading maps…
I’ve found the best way to trade maps, w/o having to give the AI any advanced techs, is to research Monarchy, Trade, and Mapmaking and nothing farther (switch to 70% tax). As soon as MP goes up, I contact my opponents and give them what they don’t have, after which I restore my science allocation. Usually, giving away these techs will be sufficient to move you to “worshipful” so they’ll trade maps. (Usually, they’ve been busy reaching military techs so they won’t have many of these.)
A note on military and timing…
I do not pretend to be an expert on war. I’m far from it actually. But, for those of you who didn’t know… Vet Ironclads are sweet little units. Since we’re going to be constructing the Lighthouse, we might as well take full advantage of it. Vet Ironclads are about the only thing in its time that can weaken a coastal city protected by Musketeers and City Walls. Did you know that ships ignore city walls? That’s right. A vet Ironclad is a 6/6 that can attack multiple times per turn!
Also, another nice little trick you can use if you have Leo (for those who didn’t know)… Just before the completion of Chivalry, pump out some Horsemen. When the tech hits they all change to Knights – half the cost.
So ends my incredibly wordy addendum. All criticism is greatly appreciated.
Let’s here from the rest of the King/Emperor crowd! (I hope I’m not the only one. ) What strat do you use?
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Peace
[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 18, 2000).]
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Aurelius
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San Francisco
Dec 1999
time: 05:12
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Looks like Diety level to me.
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DirkZelwis
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Berlin, Germany, Europa
Feb 2000
time: 05:12
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Hello!
I normally play at emperor level, it is both fun and challenging. I beat the AI once at deity, re-loading every goody hut I didn't like, only to win the game. It was not fun, it was hard work, I just had to do it - once.
I like to have lots of cities, and, as on real earth, every continent inhabitated. Not necessarily by me, but inhabitated. And I do have a question about ICS, does it mean to have, say, 3 cities in the space of one city radius? Or does ICS mean, keep founding new cities all the time until the world is totally populated?
Good idea for a new threat, thank you!
Bye, Dirk
"Dirks and Daggers."
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Hawkx9
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Moorhead, MN, US
Jun 2000
time: 05:12
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SG,
The Lighthouse doesn't increase mov't? Hmm... Oh, just not for triremes. My mistake. It's a cheap buy at 200 shields... IMO, if it saves one loaded trireme, it pays for itself. (Not including the nice vet-Ironclad window.)
Yeah, any land unit can make contact, but contacting the farthest civ (with is whom you'll probably want to trade) is a pain, especially if on an island.
Lurker? Well, in diety, the fact that the 2nd person in each city is already PO'ed is what bothers me. Although, starting with two settlers would definately be nice. Maybe I'll cave and try diety today.
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Peace 
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16-06-2000 06:04
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