19-06-2001 05:10									#1
	EU: Deleted Suffering from ads?

(This was posted first at ACOL since 'Poly was down for a while.)

First, let me just say that I have read and re-read all the glowing reviews. Any you know what? I guess they are right. But I wouldn't know because I never gave the game a chance. From the jerky frames of the Paradox intro-"movie" (I have a P3 800 / 256 Mb RAM blah blah blah), to the overly long load times at the start, to the numerous (endless) functions that are buried and / or never explained properly, I came to one conclusion last night after giving EU its last try:
The game is a labor of love. It was made by a bunch of guys who always wanted a Civ-like game in which you couldn't win simply by being a dumbass warmongerer. From what I see, they accomplished that very well.

Except, of course, they made the gamer work TOO DAMN hard to sort all the mechanics out and suffer through dozens of tiny annoyances that, for me, killed the game before it ever had a chance. Now, I've seen the number of people on-line who absolutely love the game, and I won't argue with them. They've undoubtedly given the game several (25+?) hours to really get the hang of things, to make sense of the mess of menus and the akward (horrible?) message system that is "supposed" to make playing RTS style possible.

I guess if you work your way though all that and spend a healthy amount of time looking for answers to the otherwise unexplained gaming elements, you can learn to like and even love the game. But for me, NO game is worth 25+ hours up front simply to feel comfortable playing. No game. I spent about 10, after which I decided I have better things to do with myself when I want to be entertained.

Now don't get me wrong: A steep learning curve can be justified as long as all the information is there. I rather enjoyed Total Art of War 2 in many ways, but simply found it boring...though it was much easier to get the hang of than EU was for me, and TAOW is considered to have an "Impossible" learning curve (Gamespot says that, anyway).

I guess I just have very little (bordering on zero) tolerance for games that make me work so hard before the pay off. "Well," one could say, "chess takes time to learn, but once you do, there's no end to how much fun it is."

True. And I'll be the first to admit that I might well be tossing out a diamond in the rough. But with chess, one can almost immediately begin working on strategy and NOT on finding hidden commands and missing information.

Finally, it's just a shame to me that a game with SO much going on simultaneously (econ, military, diplomacy) didn't give a priority to making it all easily digestible to the player. I would likely have stuck with this in my younger days, but now that I'm very, very busy, I demand more, I guess. For no doubt as all the reviews and on-line threads show, there is certainly a great game in there somewhere.

Just be prepared to work to find it.

	19-06-2001 10:53									#2
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Sad to hear you gave up...

But, EU just is so damm hard to learn. I spent a weekend to just play the tutorial and after that I needed many more pure learning hours. (I think 25h, as you said, is in the lower end) Manual is totally crap.

And whats even worst. All your statements are absolutely true, I haven't got any statement that I could argue well on. (Oh, there are reports on how to conqure the entire world in EU )

Btw. I also stopped playing EU, now that I know the mechanics to win it's mostly micromanagement endlessly. (espisially if you want to win - like I do )

Q: Which game next?

	19-06-2001 11:36									#3
	Remove this text

Hmmm, so you had a similar experience? I wonder how all these people learned to love the game so easily? For my next game, I have Black and White sitting unopened on my desk (who knows if I'll ever play it). Actually, I am hearing great things about Tropico so am considering that one...you?

	19-06-2001 12:42									#4
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Yup, I had very very big problems in learning the game.

IIRC I lost my nervs totally three time during the DEMO. It was so bad that in those momements I closed my CPU and promised myself not to play anymore - only to a couple of hours later beginning the game again. (Why did I start again and again? I think the game deserved the chance. I had read that it wouldf be hard to learn and maybe I am that stubborn that admitting a game beating me isn't an option )


Right now it's summer in Finland and I hope to not play any games for a month or two.
(Talking about them is OK though )

P.S. I'm glad that I finally learned the game - it was a lot of fun, ... for a while

	19-06-2001 20:32									#5
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I'm by no means an expert gamer. Hell, I'm only on the Prince level of Civ2 (I've had the game since Christmas of '96), but EU wasn't all that hard to learn to play.

I played a GC for two weeks and pretty much learned everything I needed. I'm sure most of you are more skilled gamers, I don't understand why you're having trouble with this game, it's not that complex or difficult. And "25+" hours to learn this game is certainly worth it for me, especially since it gives back so much enjoyment in the gameplay.


Anyway, Yin, any jerky frames or slow load times may be due to your system, not necessarily the game. I have an Athlon 900 and 256 MB of RAM and the game runs just fine.

	19-06-2001 22:44									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't think it took that long to play, although I couldn't make a guess as to the hours.

I find the messaging system clumsy, as most do. Loading troops is a pain as is finding a leader on a fleet that you sent somewhere to explore.

I almost gave the game up, I just got real annoyed at the messages and the real time aspect during wars.

But I played it through, found the menu to allow you to configure the messages and now am only 100 years from finishing my first GC. I love the alternate history, the diplomacy and restrictions on war are really nice, especially since I am a warmonger in most games.

	20-06-2001 03:56									#7
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Kyle:

quote: And "25+" hours to learn this game is certainly worth it for me, especially since it gives back so much enjoyment in the gameplay.

I won't argue with you except to say: Don't you think that's a bit above the norm? Sure, it can take weeks to begin to MASTER a game, but that much time just to master the interface?

quote: Anyway, Yin, any jerky frames or slow load times may be due to your system, not necessarily the game. I have an Athlon 900 and 256 MB of RAM and the game runs just fine.

True. But what I'm pointing out seems like programming issues, not my system. I don't mean the game hangs or anything. It just seems evident that the code wasn't streamlined. No big deal in and of itself, but as part of the bigger picture, it indicates to me that EU is a labor of love that didn't see enough testing with new users. Again, no big deal on its own.

Garth Vader:

quote: I almost gave the game up, I just got real annoyed at the messages and the real time aspect during wars.

Well, within minutes I customized my messages, etc., and didn't suffer too much from the real-time / pause problem. I just overall got tired of the holistic effect of having to speed things up so SOMETHING would happen, only to be akwardly looking for this or that once some did.

As both of you have said, EU is one of those games people seem to love once they get the hang of it. I don't doubt you. I would just like to point out to anybody considering the game that he/she will need to invest a considerable amount of time before there is any pay off, which might or might not make them reconsider the purchase.

	20-06-2001 04:05									#8
	Got spare money?

quote: I won't argue with you except to say: Don't you think that's a bit above the norm? Sure, it can take weeks to begin to MASTER a game, but that much time just to master the interface?

I thought the interface was pretty good. Everything was easy to get to and easily understood. Yes, the manual was bad, but it was easy enough to figure out.

I guess it depends on how much time you have to play. At this point in my life, I have almost as much time as I want to play/learn a game. While some may only be able to play a couple hours a week.

	20-06-2001 07:55									#9
	Tired of ads?

Yes, I (unfortunately) fall into the "Can only play a few hours a week" category so I freely admit that EU was probably never going to survive on my hard-drive in the first place...despite all the great things are clearly in the game.

Ah, well. I can always play again when I retire...50 years from now.

	22-06-2001 10:46									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hmm... I agree that the interface is definitely clunky at times, but I didn't find that a major impediment to learning the game. Ultimately, if you click on the territories and see the "buildings" inside them, and use the diplomacy, trade & colonization buttons on the left hand side of the screen, that's pretty much all you do the game.

The complete inability of fleets to do things like patrol regularly and return to port on their own without excessive micromanaging was annoying though.

But I don't think micromanagement is too huge in EU. Most of the game I just sit back with the years flying by, perhaps attending to my colonization efforts while buildling up any territories that need it, and renewing royal marriages and such.

As for Black & White, I have to say that it seems rather dissapointing. A very good effort, but not such a good game in parts, especially if you want to play the "good" way.

Tropico you probably already know what you're getting. Do you like Sim City with a twist? General building for the fun of buildling and keeping it from falling apart? That's what I expect from Tropico, and the fact that Phil Steinmeyer designed the thing is a very good sign. I'll probably pick it up once the price has dropped.

	22-06-2001 21:48									#11
	Re: EU: Deleted Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Except, of course, they made the gamer work TOO DAMN hard to sort all the mechanics out and suffer through dozens of tiny annoyances that, for me, killed the game before it ever had a chance.

Very well said. I gave up on EU long before you did because, as stated in the Imp2/EU thread, they made the game needlessly obtuse. And if you dare criticize that in the EU forum, they call you a simple-minded peasant. While Imp2 and Civ2 may not be as clever as EU, at they are fun and don't make you believe the playing a game should be hard work.

	24-06-2001 01:30									#12
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I am a history buff, i love the game. There were problems at the beginning with windows, messages, maps and the sort but i solved those quickly. Played a few GC's to get the hang of it (i didn't finish them of course) then played as Russia t'il the end.

I don't think micro management is a ***** at all. I am currently playing the Improved Grand Campaign patch (improved stuff, monarch&leader files, new nations, play as any nation, annex major nations) as Turkey. It is now 1727 and my 2000 fleet, 2million army (It could be bigger - say 10- but my high tec allows me to field a much smaller army and win) help me keep my rule from the atlantic to the pacific, from finland to ethiopia. Yep, I have a alliance with my neighbour, France. Oh and I united Germany! Heeeehehehe... It's great I took those Russian Cities over the Ural, I didn't have to invade China over seas, just by land. One more thing- Those indians where tough, they had big fortresses, i had to regroup my entire army "Persia" there (~500,000 men) to finally annex them. Rebellions are often, it is easy to conquer but hard to keep. I had Russia secceeding from me 3 times, Ukraine once, Poland once and Czechia once as well.
See? I love this game

	29-06-2001 05:18									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

EU's interface is fine by me. It would probably be easier to master if they didn't try to make it more attractive, but that's just hypothetical.

I am currently playing IGC as ahistorical Prussia and doing quite well on the diplomatic side of things.

P.S. In my previous game as Austria I edited down my badboy rating when it reached 72.

	29-06-2001 18:22									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well, never really had any problems playing EU, and the first time I played it was reallt fun even then.

It hasn't really got a steeper learning curve than Civ had, I played many a civ games before I understood everything.

It's just so a fantastic game... etc etc etc

	30-06-2001 00:21									#15
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I finally bought it a couple of nights ago and have been slowly working my way to figuring it out.

This game is similar to being tortured: Messages pop up left and right while you're trying to do something (yes - I found the 50 page screen that allows you to customize this), reorganizing your armies and fleets is a 20,000 click process, a tutorial that doesn't allow you to save your game (REALLY bad), numbers that turn into decimal numbers . . . this is madness!

Currently, I am trying to figure out the relationship between monthly and yearly income - are they totally separate? The numbers just don't seem to add up. And is there a nice, easily accessable number that will simply tell me how much my yearly income will be (I found the monthly one)?

I finally gave up the tutorial and went to the GC (as many people seem to suggest) to play as England. POW! I'm punched with a multicolored screen wherein the different colors appear to be for cosmetic purposes only: shades of green, brown and blue! No meaning, as far as I can tell. It's just there. When I finally found the political map mode, I thought "Hallelujah! I'll just play it this way!" WRONG! Where did my troops go?!

I declared war on Scotland and invaded their capital. They took it back and invaded me. I countered again when suddenly his troops invaded Ireland. GREAT! The AI doesn't seem limited to merely attacking the closest enemy unit. He lands w/ approx 1000 men & 100 artillery and takes Ulster. I land w/ approx 5000 men and sweep him away. Fine, except that wherever he retreats, he captures the city that lies there . . . with only 50 artillery! So, of course, I'm chasing him all over Ireland; a very brief battle occurs at each point wherein he loses (I think) one unit before he's off retreating again. Finallly, I place 1000 men in each Irish province (5 provinces) thinking that will finally get him. WRONG! He just bounces from one province to the next . . . tying up my 5000 men that could have been used in Scotland! Come on! Artillery in those days did not move THAT fast!

Frustrated, I quit the game. I'll try again later because . . . well, because I'm insane.

	30-06-2001 01:13									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yep it's madness but it's worth it after a while. I'll give you a few hints.

quote: Messages pop up left and right while you're trying to do something (yes - I found the 50 page screen that allows you to customize this)

You can also rightclick on the message when it pops up and change it that way, much easier as I see it.

quote: POW! I'm punched with a multicolored screen wherein the different colors appear to be for cosmetic purposes only: shades of green, brown and blue!

The colours tells you about the terrain. That affects your troops in a number of ways (speed, how fast they die (always too fast)).

quote: I'm chasing him all over Ireland

Yes this can be annoying, a small swedish army just did that to me in northen russia. The easiest way is to more or less ignore it since it hardly can invade anything after a few punches. Another way is to make peace (no sweat for you since you've got a permanent casus belli against Scotland). You know that you must make peace to get provinces right?

	30-06-2001 05:01									#17
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Chronos, stick in there. I promise that it willbe rewarding, this game is the most fun I have ever had with a computer, including civ, civ 2 and Smac.
Like Kropotkin said, rightclick on the messages to change options for them.

When you take scotland there are many good strategies, one that works good is to lure them to attack you and then use the fleet to land troops behind the enemy lines. That way you can annex them and get their remainigng troops as well.

And there are tons of good mods/expansions/tools for EU as well. Replayablility galore...

Kropotkin, king of norrland ? I thought that was me ?
Från skellefteå själv

	01-07-2001 21:52									#18
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I'm really from Varberg, just showing up in norrland makes me the king by right!

I'm actually planning to go to Skellefte for trästocksfestivalen to se Randy, otherwise I wouldn't visit a place with a gigantic penis in the town square....

	02-07-2001 09:02									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Hi Kropotkin,

Thanks for the advice. I did find some sections in the manual regarding terrain. Right clicking the message box for options is also a big help. I think I may have to turn everything off. It's near impossible fighting a war when all these messages are popping around. Most importantly, I went to the EU site and downloaded the 1.9 patch . . . I can now save the tutorial!

I'm still having trouble with the hot keys. I try using the 'g' key to combine my armies but it doesn't seem to work. I'll look into this later.

	02-07-2001 13:20									#20
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Chronos, first thing to learn is to pause everytime tons of messages pops up. I laways play at maximum speed and they pause whenever something happens, it's a good way to play methinks.

Kropotkin, varberg... hahaha. To bad for yoiu Trästocks usually sucks, bad bands.

Hey that penis is art Is some perverse way

	05-09-2001 20:05									#21
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Thats to bad... I enjoy the game, its amazingly difficult. The AI will kick you around if you are not careful. I enjoy the not so great graphics, because the plot of the game is so good..

As for Conquering the ENTIRE world...Never done! Way too many provinces, so many strange events...

i was once Russia and captured all the khanites, Poland, Sweden, most of the eastern German nations, All of turkey towards istanbul on the Euro continet, all of hungary, Greece, Austria and annexed papal states.. Then the revolts started .

(Didnt bother going into Siberia)

	09-09-2001 20:56									#22
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EU is a game I wanted to buy, but was scared away by the talk of its steep learning curve coupled with my miniscule amount of free time. Do you think EU II will solve these problems or will they solve them and add more complexities?

	10-09-2001 04:40									#23
	Remove this text

EU is a game I wanted to buy, but was scared away by the talk of its steep learning curve coupled with my miniscule amount of free time. Do you think EU II will solve these problems or will they solve them and add more complexities?

What steep learning curve? Then again, I did occassionally read the troubleshooting and AAR forums for months before my purchase.

	10-09-2001 11:03									#24
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My first game was great. I was Sweden, I lost all 6 of my wars over the course of the game(had to cede lots of provinces to Russia, Tuetons and danes), and I was economically bankrupt.

Still was an awesome expierence to get manhandled . Diplomacy is more important than anything. If you dont have strong allies in strong places, dont go to war! Usaully after you forge a bond with a nation, the AI will be loyal and send troops to aid you.....eventually. It may take a few months but somthing always comes

Speaking of AAR's the EU website has got thousands of them..

	29-09-2001 02:21									#25
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EU2 will be more intuitive !
I'm a bit afraid of saying too much since I'm bound by an NDA, but EU2 actually looks like a huge improvement over the original. Paradox is fully aware that they got lot of flak over the steep learning curve....
As a side note, some of us rabid EU fans bought the game in German since it was released there first, without actually understanding a word of German, now that is a learning curve ))


Cobos

EU2 Beta tester

	29-09-2001 02:30									#26
	Put an end to popups!

lucky sunova...

Anyway Cobos, I think the Paradox team is just great. Really friendly and cool people, cheers

	29-09-2001 10:53									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Slax EU is a game I wanted to buy, but was scared away by the talk of its steep learning curve coupled with my miniscule amount of free time. Do you think EU II will solve these problems or will they solve them and add more complexities?

EU2 flattens that curve out very well. There is a very different tutorial that takes you thro' most aspects of the game.
Also the manual is a "real" manual written to ease you into the game and with valuable charts for those that want them.
The transition will be easier this time!

	01-10-2001 00:37									#28
	Tired of ads?

I dont know I was at my brothers and he loaded it up fine ten he showed me how to play it for about 30 minutes then he went off.
I was playing as the russians and in an hour had conquered the two county guy south of me and had taken one province from the guy below him.
Also it was set to Hard. I haven't played it since then It was never released in Ireland and download sites are all down
Great game and I thought I'd gotten the hang of Econ and war. Another hour I'd have been fine with the rest of it too.

	07-10-2001 21:01									#29
	Put an end to popups!

Well, as a comparison I found EU significantly easier to learn, and to learn to play well, than games such as Caesar III etc. Thirty minutes getting bored in the tutorial then into a GC as England.................

Maybe it's just 'cause as a historically minded individual who occasionally likes not to conquer the world it really motivated me!

	10-10-2001 05:30									#30
	Remove this text

Ironically, after EU's steep learning curve, I find it far easier toget into other games, like Imperialism II (which confused me last year so much I gave up). Too bad I can barely run EU nowadays with a 4x CD-ROM drive (the other one won't load anything)