19-06-2001 14:21									#1
	I think a progressive change is best. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I think I mentioned this in another thread. Too many people are expecting a complete and utter overhaul of Civ2. But the changes from Civ to Civ2 were subtle, and included more of an extension of the game, not a change of the central game mechanisms. And improvements on user interface and graphics. So what are people expecting either? Are people just being malcontents, and are never going to be happy with what they get? If they change and mess with it too much, you will get another CtP, and there are a lot of people who don't want that. Subtle, well calculated changes are in order, ie, combat system, trade, diplomacy, etc. Not basic fundamentals of the game.

	19-06-2001 16:32									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree Provost. Give me the game I love, but with more/better features, and without the annoying elements of previous versions (within reason of course).

Though one worrys that we might all just get bored of the civ model....Highly unlikely

	19-06-2001 16:42									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well this is it, it needs invigoration, not overhaul. Civ2 was invigoration, not overhaul. And because of it, Civ2 was a better game than Civ1. And I don't say that lightly as I played Civ1 for many, many years before Civ2 came out in 96.

	19-06-2001 17:04									#4
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Well we already know that there won't be a complete overhaul.

Still the changes between civ3 and civ2 will be bigger than between 2 & 1. Culture/borders/resources are completely new concepts while the only new concept introduced in civ2 was 'reputation' with hasn't much impact anyway.

	19-06-2001 17:22									#5
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I think people expect more because, as well as the long time gap, they see the genre as including other games. So rather than Civ I - II - III it has been Civ I - Civ II - CtP - SMAC - CtP2 - Civ III. Now there is certainly no way to force them to put in all of the good ideas that the other games premiered, but equally they should not be completely ignored as if they have nothing to do with Civ. It is foolish to ignore a step forward because it wasn't introduced by a "true" Civ game. The others had no compunction about borrowing the best the Civ series had to offer. Underneath it all there will still be the settler founding cities and scientists pushing you up the tech tree from barbarian to space age democrat.

	19-06-2001 17:31									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Paul L Well we already know that there won't be a complete overhaul. Still the changes between civ3 and civ2 will be bigger than between 2 & 1. Culture/borders/resources are completely new concepts while the only new concept introduced in civ2 was 'reputation' with hasn't much impact anyway.

Sorry, "reputation" as the only new concept? Probably my "memory fault" erase some Civ 1 features, because I don't remember so

Feel free to correct me; it seems to me that some new concepts added in Civ2 where:

- Trades and goods market
- Units "strenght bar" and damaged unit concept added
- Unit "morale" rookie/veteran status gained in battle or by barracks
- Quite different rules for road and railroad effect
- Different Wonders effects and limits
- Different graphic model, flat vs isometric (but I can agree it's not necessary a different game concept)

I agree with you Civ III doesn't seem so far a main overhaul, and I'm afraid it will be a great miss: my opinion is you can already see the consequence on E3 and previewers opinion, where they mostly seems to ignore and dismiss Civ III as a minor sequel.

I bet only a very limited players population will note the game: I still hope we will enjoy it, but mass market will look to others, most "state of the art" game.

I own a car I enjoyed a lot, but now it's becoming old and I'm looking for a replacement. I liked the company of my current car but, guess what? They have the same model of car, just tweaked for the fourth time. Enhanced? No, aged!

What was very good 6 years ago is out of standard now, no matter how much you can modify the original model: you must start from scratch, with a new design.

	19-06-2001 18:35									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Paul L Well we already know that there won't be a complete overhaul. Still the changes between civ3 and civ2 will be bigger than between 2 & 1. Culture/borders/resources are completely new concepts while the only new concept introduced in civ2 was 'reputation' with hasn't much impact anyway.

Actually the initial concept of borders was featured in SMAC. They will use some of the concepts of this I would expect, especially the nature of upgrades which would be a good idea (you pay for military upgrades in cash). So it maybe a bigger jump than from civ1 to civ2, but remember it isn't purely a jump from civ2 to civ3, there has been SMAC, and all they have learnt from that, in the middle.

	19-06-2001 20:45									#8
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quote: Feel free to correct me; it seems to me that some new concepts added in Civ2 where: - Trades and goods market

yes, but trade remained the same as in civ1 in principle, but that's may be because I didn't take the commodities into account (only important for the one-time-bonus)

quote: - Units "strenght bar" and damaged unit concept added

forgot about that, although it was merely a solution for the phalanx/battleship problem and didn't change combat too much

quote: - Unit "morale" rookie/veteran status gained in battle or by barracks

that was also in civ1

quote: - Quite different rules for road and railroad effect

again not that much different, but I was glad I didn't have to build railroads everywere around my cities

quote: - Different Wonders effects and limits

not a new concept i my idea

quote: - Different graphic model, flat vs isometric (but I can agree it's not necessary a different game concept)

I agree not a different game concept


so, compared to the cultere, borders, resources, trade we will have in civ3 (and possibly a new combat model en minor civs???) not that much was changed in civ2

	19-06-2001 21:17									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith Feel free to correct me; it seems to me that some new concepts added in Civ2 where: - Trades and goods market - Units "strenght bar" and damaged unit concept added - Unit "morale" rookie/veteran status gained in battle or by barracks - Quite different rules for road and railroad effect - Different Wonders effects and limits - Different graphic model, flat vs isometric (but I can agree it's not necessary a different game concept)

The strength bar and morale upgrades are two facets of the same idea: upgraded combat system. The main problem was still there: 10 tanks should be able to take a city where a single mech inf is defending. They couldn't because Civ I&II didn't take account of the increase in attacking power which joint action can have. Civ III does.

The roads, railroads and Wonders changes were all tweaks on the original plan. Now, 24 minor Wonders have been introduced, a completely new category, while there are only 12 "old-school" Wonders.

The misnamed "isometric" view makes no difference whatsoever to gameplay. None. All it does is rotate the axes 45 degrees.

The commodities market in Civ II was just a tweak. You still built caravans and sent them to enemy cities; you just sent them to whichever one your trade advisor told you would give the biggest bonus. In Civ III, there aren't any caravans. Trade is even more important, unless you want to face your generic warriors against iron-requiring swordsmen. Colonies: Gotta love 'em.

I agree that Civ III didn't come up with the border system, but this is still a change which removes one of the major annoyances of Civ II: when the AI planted cities right beside mine. I hope that the "creeping border problem" from SMAC is resolved. This problem is what allowed the strategy of pushing your neighbors' borders further and further back by building a city just on your side of the frontier. Hopefully a peace treaty will fix borders.

One word: culture. I play peaceful and perfectionist, and I think that such a playing strategy should be rewarded. The game's called "Civilization" and not "The Golden Horde". Also, it's been consistently shown throughout history how difficult it is to subdue a hostile nation. People have long memories.

Oh yeah. Eye candy. Fully animated 3-D units. Beautiful, classical style maps. Animated leaders. Nice city views. Sid's face on my advisor screen. Animated leaders.

Finally, Civ III is multiplayer by multiple methods right out of the box. I never MPed because I would have had to buy MGE separately. I couldn't play half of the scenarios out there because they required Fantastic Worlds or Test of Time. Two free scenarios? Give me a break. We're getting a dozen this time around. We may or may not be able to play 16 players on the same map. Civ I&II were virtually identical. Civ III is based on the same concept, but has been significantly altered, in my opinion.

	19-06-2001 23:32									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: What was very good 6 years ago is out of standard now, no matter how much you can modify the original model: you must start from scratch, with a new design.

You better tell the car compaines that still make and SELL the same great car model from over 40 years ago.

	20-06-2001 11:00									#11
	What changes would I like to see Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

For my part, I don't neccesarily want a radical departure from the Civ model. That said, however, there are a couple of features which, if added, would make my enjoyment of Civ III absolutely COMPLETE. These are (aside from those which are already being included):

1) A much improved combat model featuring the following aspects;
a) Simultaneous combat between multiple units (ie. true army combat).
b) A combat engine which accounts for the effects of terrain, weapon/target range and unit speed on combat.
c) A model which factors the effect of distance and time away from home-ground on unit morale/attrition.

2) A real "sense" of interaction between an empire and its citizens (eg. better civil war/revolution model and a chance for parts of your society to attempt to "block" your attempts to study certain techs; build certain improvements; sign certain treaties and start certain wars.)

Anyway, not a really long list, is it?

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	20-06-2001 15:59									#12
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins You better tell the car compaines that still make and SELL the same great car model from over 40 years ago.

I beg your pardon, sir: wich car model are you mentioning? (bar from any Collectionist model, that - by itself - doesn't count).

I don't pretend to be a great expert of car, but I can't really remember any example of car same model of 'sixties (here in Italy, at least).

But I'll like to see any opinion about my note:

quote: I agree with you Civ III doesn't seem so far a main overhaul, and I'm afraid it will be a great miss: my opinion is you can already see the consequence on E3 and previewers opinion, where they mostly seems to ignore and dismiss Civ III as a minor sequel.

Looking at recent E3 Apolyton news I feel bad taste: more and more the turn base strategy is ignored, the RTS seems to be the only product line able to attract reviewers and (mass) players attention.

	21-06-2001 04:07									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Sorry guys, I forgot to mention a third thing I'd like to see:

3) A Movement Point allowance system that takes into account the length (in years) of a turn.
i.e. At the beginning of the game, units should have much higher MP's, but this should come down over time!

Thanks for listening.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	21-06-2001 07:39									#14
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quote: I can't really remember any example of car same model of 'sixties

Well, here's one the Ford Mustang. Yeah it has changed a lot from the first model till now, but if you look at the changes from year to year there aren't many differences just improvements each year which has lead to the newest model. It's like Civ if you look at the changes from Civ to Civ2 you can find some but not a lot it's same way with Civ2 to Civ3. If you look at the differences between Civ to Civ3 you can find many.

	21-06-2001 07:51									#15
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quote: Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker Sorry guys, I forgot to mention a third thing I'd like to see: 3) A Movement Point allowance system that takes into account the length (in years) of a turn. i.e. At the beginning of the game, units should have much higher MP's, but this should come down over time! Thanks for listening. Yours, The_Aussie_Lurker.

Your idea is not good because this would achieve greater "literal realism" but would sacrifice "historic realism".

If at the beginning of the game, units had much higher MPs, than it would be possible for empires to grow and expand and explore enormous distances and also fight enemies at enormous distances that simply defy historical and common sense!

With greater MPs at the beginning of the game, it would be possible to create the equivalent of the British Empire or have geographical knowledge of the world of the 1800s in only 500BC!

But with MPs the way they are now and with turn rates the way they are now, the overall historic progress of the Civ3 world is much more realistic even if literal movement rates are not.

Please do not confuse "literalism" with "realism". (Please read my rant "Literalism vs Realism" if you want a more detailed explanation.)

	21-06-2001 08:26									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hi Polypheus,
When I said that MP allowance should be increased, I didn't mean by much (2-3MP's at most), additionally, I feel that the limitation to movement should be range. That is, a unit can only move out to a limited range beyond their nations borders. Range would be partly based on how much relative supply the unit might need (eg. a foot-soldier would have a greater range than cavalry) Explorers and Spec-op units would have the greatest range, followed by settlers, followed again by ordinary military units. The only way to expand your range would be to either 1) Expand your borders
2) Capture an enemy city with, at minimum, a working granary (and a barracks for military units)
3) Building some sort of supply system (Supply depots connected to your empire by roads!)
I also feel that, in order to balance things out, building improvements should cost MP's, but the improvements are built immediately (no more 50 year farms!!!). This way, if a military unit wants to build a supply depot to extend its range, it would need to sacrifice the bulk of its movement to do so! Additionally, it would allow easier movements of your units "Within" your empire!

I would also like to point out that, if this system were to be used, I feel it would allow you to more accurately reflect the size of the Empires of Rome and Alexander the Great!
Anyway just a thought. Tell me what you think.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	22-06-2001 01:32									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith What was very good 6 years ago is out of standard now, no matter how much you can modify the original model: you must start from scratch, with a new design.

No way, how long should we have to wait if all Programs were written from scratch in machine code. We would probably still be stuck with DOS.

And don't tell me Intel should begin with reinventing the transistor every time they shall make a new Processor. Or if you had to buy a new electric system every time you buy a new electric machine, as the companies keep changing the design of the plugs, and the Voltage.

	22-06-2001 02:35									#18
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins Well, here's one the Ford Mustang. Yeah it has changed a lot from the first model till now, but if you look at the changes from year to year there aren't many differences just improvements each year which has lead to the newest model. It's like Civ if you look at the changes from Civ to Civ2 you can find some but not a lot it's same way with Civ2 to Civ3. If you look at the differences between Civ to Civ3 you can find many.

If a new model of civ came out every 18 months then no-one would be expecting lots of big improvements. On the basis that this version is going to be the first in nearly a decade it needs to do more than just polish up a game which has been surpassed in many ways in the interim. Particularly if another version will not be made for a long time to come, if ever.

	22-06-2001 02:46									#19
	Re: I think a progressive change is best. Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I think I mentioned this in another thread. Too many people are expecting a complete and utter overhaul of Civ2. But the changes from Civ to Civ2 were subtle, and included more of an extension of the game, not a change of the central game mechanisms. And improvements on user interface and graphics. So what are people expecting either? Are people just being malcontents, and are never going to be happy with what they get? If they change and mess with it too much, you will get another CtP, and there are a lot of people who don't want that. Subtle, well calculated changes are in order, ie, combat system, trade, diplomacy, etc. Not basic fundamentals of the game.

Well, I think that Civ-3 is promised to be a much bigger update, compared with Civ-2, then Civ-2 ever was compared with Civ-1. Anyway I think I understand that you mean. Half-life 2 cant look & play like a supposed Thief-3 and vice versa. Game-developers just cant make such wild jumps, without changing the title and marketing it as a completely different game.

The same way, Firaxis cant make Civ-3 look & play like a supposed CTP-3, or EU-2. Civ is Civ - and Civ only. They must stay true to the basic "magic formula", and develop/rehash the game further with that in mind.

	22-06-2001 03:29									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Absolutely Ralf. Yeah, I know this looks like a considerably larger leap than between civ and civ2. But it is the nature of the leap that is the concern. They have learned from SMAC, they have had time to think about it and analyse the type of changes that make the game better and not detract from the gameplay. I think this game is in capable hands, at least in terms of gameplay anyway. Trust Sid, that is all I have to say

	22-06-2001 17:15									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Gramphos No way, how long should we have to wait if all Programs were written from scratch in machine code. We would probably still be stuck with DOS. And don't tell me Intel should begin with reinventing the transistor every time they shall make a new Processor. Or if you had to buy a new electric system every time you buy a new electric machine, as the companies keep changing the design of the plugs, and the Voltage.

Sorry?

Was it my bad english or are you misundertanding me?

When a new game need the same amount of job of reinventing the transistor?

Now, we are well aware of code library, but they are mostly for the need of standard and quick interface between the new program and the Operating System (and related services).

Some programs make similar use of graphic engine (e.g. quake engine was the common ground of plenty of first person/third person shooters).

Sequels and add-on often reuse most of the previus release code.

But completely new games exist: don't let Firaxis habit let you think different (and wrong)

Don't be fooled by some resemblance some products have, for sake of backward compatibility or reduced learning time using similar user interface and commands.

A company can (and sometime must) try a different, fresh approach. The modern history is full of example of companies disappeared because of their "resting on the laurel" approach.
If the best know design team for TBS can't so that, so who?

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold If a new model of civ came out every 18 months then no-one would be expecting lots of big improvements. On the basis that this version is going to be the first in nearly a decade it needs to do more than just polish up a game which has been surpassed in many ways in the interim. Particularly if another version will not be made for a long time to come, if ever.

Exactly! A years of development can be more than enough for every minor improvement. Three years of work to get a 2.5 version... well, I sincerely hope I'm dead wrong, and the game will end as a masterpiece.
Once more, it'll be very interesting to know how different was Civ III into early -Brian Reynolds' team- design.

The only hint I have is that Brian left because he wants truly innovative game ....

The incredible info that Sid wandered around Dino concept without a proper target (they tried any concept, from RTS to Cards!), ending with a sudden STOP, probably mean something

	23-06-2001 10:41									#22
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Sure, Civ 3 should be evolutionary instread of revolutionary, but methinks the evolution step is too small. I would much prefer that Firaxis left a Unit Workshop in the game, or at least have something like the army raising in Europa Univeralis for pre-Modern Age armies.

E3 previewers notwithstanding, Civ 3 should be a smash hit when released. Eye candies are all fine and dandy, but a large segment of gamers are forgotten by the lastest gee-whiz pushers, namely those with older computers.

	23-06-2001 17:16									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith Was it my bad english or are you misundertanding me?

I think I know what you wanted to say, but I liked to inform you that you need to have some "standard" components to make a product.

...and you can't start from Scratch unless you've invented paper.

	24-06-2001 17:56									#24
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provost is right for once

	24-06-2001 18:57									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think Civ3 , from everything i have read and seen so far, will be vastly differnet from Civ 2... whilst not going as far as smoe would like it to go, it shoudl stil lbe a good game, provising the MP side works !!!

	24-06-2001 19:01									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse provost is right for once

Watch it sunshine And don't I deserve the honour of a capital letter?

	24-06-2001 19:18									#27
	Got spare money?

when you get to deity level you can get a capital P