28-06-2000 16:59									#1
	KhanMan's Nomads Challange Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

KhanMan posted this challange in the Civ General Forum. It really belongs here, so I thought I would just start another thread on the subject.

He Posted:
1. The game must abide by Cold Wizard's varient of the Nomads Challenge: you may
never build a city, only capture them, or take them from the ai.

2. The game settings are as follows:

7 civs
large world
raging hordes
deity

Now, should two people pass this challenge, the winner will be the one who wins first.

(Personally, I think it's impossible, but go ahead... :P )

-KhanMan the LLSS

Well KhanMan, it isn't impossible. Always looking for a new challange, both Rah and I have been having fun with it. Neither of us have won yet, but it is just a matter of time now. Both of us started a few with no success. If you don't start on a land mass with another civ, or the civ doesn't have a costal city, you learn real quick that you don't have a chance.

Both of us are now playing games where we do have a chance. (it took me 4 tries, and Rah said it took him a few too)

Now it is just a matter of when, not if. Rah is even thinking of just blowing off world conquest, and trying for AC

I really recommend this one to people because it is different. Most of your cities will suck because the AI usually has a strange concept of what a good city location is. They always seem to just miss the trade specials by one square

	28-06-2000 18:42									#2
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My original thought was that it would be best to find a civ early, but I didn't and it may have been for the better.

All those huts. Lots of money, techs and tons of units (about 50% units) NO BARBS OR ADVANCED TRIBES. (proving some previous theorysand it was approaching 1500 b.c.)

I got lucky when i finally found a civ and was able to take their capital and it was on the Coast.

To be prepared, and I was through blind luck, it is important that you have already found the following techs. (because it will be many turns before you discover any.

Monarchy. (and you can revolt prior to capturing your first city so you can already be in monarchy.)

Masonry. To build a palace.

Writing. to build diplos to bribe other cities.

Mapmaking. to get to sea. (the large maps are killers.

AND hopefully have enough money to buy the palace, diplo, ship. and have enough left over to bribe a few cities.

The hardest part is taking cities without destroying them early. I got lucky and a defender attacked out or I would have had to wait for the city to grow to three to take it.

But I believe I will try for AN AC win.
It will be a challange since all the cities are spread out and hard to defend.

And the AI has no clue on what a good city location is as ming said.

RAH
The Ferrets had to be even more sneaky on this one.

	28-06-2000 19:13									#3
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Yeah... maybe it is better to find another civ later, as long as you find one

I didn't get map making or masonary from a hut. I did have monarchy, so thanks for the tip. I waited until I took my first city before I revolted... what a waste of time.

You seem to have gotten far more sciences from huts. I probably got 70 to 80% units.
You know it's bad when you start praying for money or sciences instead of more non units.

I would be interested to hear anybody else's experiencies if they give it a try. This is the most fun I've had since OCC!

	28-06-2000 19:15									#4
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Interesting,
What happens if you trigger a hut with an Advanced Tribe?

	28-06-2000 19:23									#5
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That theoretically doesn't happen until you take your first city. (some have claimed that it can happen before you have a city, but not until it approaches AD, but I've never seen it happen)

After you take your first city from an AI civ, just reset and enter the hut again. I think those are the same rules people use for the OCC (One City Challange) And if you get a city from a hut BEFORE you have a city, just reset also, but POST THAT IT HAPPENED

	29-06-2000 03:35									#6
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Ok I'll try anything once.

1st attempt is going well.Got a city on the coast with a whale and fish in 1600bc.Palace is up and wonder started.

kinda weird having Moscow as the American capitol.

I destroyed Rome early(unfortuantely),If I would have waited for size 3 I could have had a city by 2500bc.Wouldn't have been coastal though.I found Construction so after that it was just a matter of finding a city.Brings up a question:

Should this be a standard game or no restart for eliminated civs?


btw-while trying a no city bloodlust game late last night I got an advancer complete with palace in 700bc.Happened to me 1 other time also.Don't usually wander that long.

thats 2 times out of literally thousands of games of which at least a few hundred were extended searching type games.Dam rare.Must be some conditions to meet first.Maybe AI city size?

it just occurred to me that although I didnt get Monarchy on the hut trail I should be able to go OCC with the just the whale and fish and have no problem with a 1850-1950 landing.We shall see.....
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited June 28, 2000).]

	29-06-2000 14:28									#7
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Sheesh! I post waht looks like an impossible challenge, and you guys are enjoying yourselves...



Ming-Well, I intended to allow advanced tribes, but if you and RAH want to be *REAAAALLLLYYY* macho, you can play with restarting instead...

Smash-Only a wierdo tries this with "no-restarting ai civs" checked :P

RAH-I admire your skill and daring, going for AC on such a challenge...

I await more results.

-KhanMan the LLSS

	29-06-2000 14:30									#8
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Oh, and Smash, I'll consider an OCC victory for the win only if you beat RAH to AC...OCC is too easy if you get a good first city in this...

:P

-KM the LLSS

And Ming: it has happened a number of times for me, playing the Cold Wizard nomads challenge on chieftan. On average, I'll get an advanced tribe around 2000 BC, if there's no ai city conquered yet...

-KM
[This message has been edited by KhanMan (edited June 29, 2000).]

	29-06-2000 16:00									#9
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Gee... an OCC version of this! I have yet to see an AI city that is in a good enough location for that... they always seem to build to just miss the good specials

KhanMan... I misunderstood your original rules, but just assumed when you said it was probably impossible that it wouldn't be fair to take a city from a hut. But, I like it better this way... more of a challange.

And I have still NOT seen a city from a hut before having a city... maybe someday I will

	29-06-2000 16:48									#10
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Smash, Whale and fish, good opening city.
KMAN, if I could have taken cities from huts, this would have been a heck of alot easier.
1300 A.D. 12 Cities
Capital has fish and silk. Missed Colosus but have the observatory, HG, and SOL there. I have ASTC and The Chapel in outland cities. Leo's real soon and working towards IN College. The Captial is only kicking out 62 beakers. Need Sanitation.

RAH
Lord of the Ferrets

	30-06-2000 09:41									#11
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KM was right.OCC is too easy for just about any challenge.I landed in 1878.I didn't "work" all that hard either.You have to get lucky finding a decent city but after that no challenge really.I'm going to try a more comventional approach.

	29-06-2000 22:48									#12
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Simply Amazing what you can do with OCC. I'm impressed since you didn't get a city until so late. A good first city is critical. I guess if I had gone that route I'd be farther along. (wasting lots of resources on the other corruption laden cities.) Wonders like mc, astc, etc are kind of meaningless in OCC. Which wonders did you build?

I did use standard (civs restart)

I guess I'll have to try for eliminating all while my spaceship is in flight. (anything else would seem kinda lame after your game since I doubt I can beat a 1878 landing)

We'll see,

Well done.

RAH
Deflated again.

My ego needs to know which version you're playing. MP gold here.
[This message has been edited by rah (edited June 29, 2000).]

	30-06-2000 01:39									#13
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thnx but the thing about it is it isn't amazing.I'm sure Paul or Tom would do some real amazing if they got lucky and found a decent city to capture.I'm just following a blueprint with the odd deviation.

OCC(Paul's system) is by far the easiest way to win by spaceship.IMO

I also had restarts on or this game would have been over after I took out the Romans.

I got a huge headstart in techs,units and gold from about 20 huts as well as 200 in tribute from Rome and Russia.I was able to disband and buy my first wonder almost outright.I had Currency, Trade and Construction amongst others so OCC seemed logical.I had a little problem getting out of Despo but fortunately the AI likes Republic so I was able to trade for it and with just 1 city "early" Republic resulted in size 12 city while the biggest ai was still at size 8.

Ocean access was critical or I would have to wait for a barb boat to come along.I had extra units to disband for my first 3 caravans.

I've been trying it again and I got real lucky getting a whale,fish and ocean access.The best I've found since had a buffalo and a potential special.This isn't as easy as my first try led me to think.

I had a beauty with rivers and ocean access in one attempt but when the city finally reached size 3 my 4 archers all died against a phalanx.That was that one.Unless there is a way to capture a defended river city with settlers.

hehe..I have GOLD but always use regular version for solo play.OCC with gold is tougher under ideal circumstances so that would be more difficult.Maybe I'll try with GOLD.

[This message has been edited by Smash (edited June 29, 2000).]

	30-06-2000 07:16									#14
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Are you guys playing a particular map, or just going random?

I did something like this, but not only did I not build a city, I never possessed a city, either. I always destoyed them (even if it meant waiting a turn) and ended conquering the world with a totally nomad army in 750bc.

Here's the thread:
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/H...html?date=00:47

So I was wondering for this if you are using a set map or not.

	30-06-2000 08:03									#15
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Large random map.

	30-06-2000 11:09									#16
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Shaking head...

If you guys want a harder challenge, how about OCC with the first city you find the only one you can conquer, on a small world, islands, and forced alliance whenever possible with all ai civs...



I'm not surprized the OCC works on this: this proves my point in another thread than a good OCC strategy can achieve better results at deity than normal deity play

-KhanMan the inferior LLSS

	30-06-2000 16:07									#17
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Yeah vik... I remember that awesome record.

But that was on a small map. Using a large map is what makes this one interesting, and is also the reason why you must have a city since all the AI Civs aren't on the same large mass. In the game I'm playing now, it took me almost 2,500 years just to take a city that was on the coast!

After talking to Rah about the good start he got off to, I might just forget the game I'm currently playing and try again so I can get off to a much faster start. I have no doubt I can win, but I'm in the boring part now... and it is just getting tedious

Now, using the OCC approach, this is an easy challange, as long as you find a half way respectable city. But only if you are going to AC. I think world conquest is what makes this one difficult. You just can't get to all the civs fast enough to mow them down.

Oh, and I've been using the non resetting destroyed civs option.

	30-06-2000 18:50									#18
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Oh, okay. I get it. Large random maps.

That makes a big difference in what I did and what you guys are trying to do.

Some more questions: Re-start eliminated civs? Some guys appear to be playing it, and some don't.

What really sucks, in my experience with large maps, is that sometimes you can be the only civ on a large land mass. That hurts!

This sounds pretty difficult.


Edit: Duh. I just re-read the thread-starter and it clearly says "Large" map. Thanks for your patience with me.
[This message has been edited by vik (edited June 30, 2000).]

	30-06-2000 19:19									#19
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Yeah vik... large maps do suck.

And there is only one thing worse than finding yourself the ONLY one on a large mass... And that is finding one other civ that doesn't have a costal city. In one game, I had tons of sciences and money from huts... and I found a civ with no costal city. I did waste some time waiting for them to kick out a settler. When they did, I tried to herd it to the coast... when that failed, I just started again

	01-07-2000 06:09									#21
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I must have horseshoes on but my current attempt saw my first city captured in 2400bc.Big deal right?

I did a little mining and got 3 silk.Built a boat and,you guessed it,a whale!Thats a 4, special site,All trade.And ocean access.
So the ai can pick good spots.Although this only had the whale when I got it.I couldn't see it at the time.

This would have made an almost ideal OCC spot,however I am going for conquest and it is much harder than my "occ" attempt.Its allready 1600ad and I'm about 8 turns into an invasion of Babylon.Still 4 to go after them.But Tactics is close and science goes to 0 after that.I expect large gains with the Leo's update working with Sun Tzu's.

Some strategy.--At the first contact I gift some techs(no bronze or warrior code) in order to get an alliance.If I have Map Making I trade maps and get a good looksy.I march my "army" next to the city of choice.Wait for size 3.Pray for 1 defender.Then cancel alliance and attack.My units have no home to be sent to and the ai doesn't guard heavy thinking it is safe in an alliance.Pretty effective way to nail down that 1st city.

Later I make alliances and send my nomads over for some strategic fortress building.Right now my closest ally has a fort beside every city,Just waiting for tenants..hehehe

You get some very long roads in this challenge.

	02-07-2000 05:14									#22
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Clever, never thought of that no city to send them home to gig. I liked revolted and being in monarchy before I took my first city.

The game I'm playing is going well (i Think)
I'm going to try to launch a space ship and finish off the last civ while it's in flight.
I'm at 1890 and delivering a beatings to the AI. Techs are one in three turns (stayed in Communism to facilitate the beatings) We'll see if I get all the techs to launch in time.

We'll see
RAH

	02-07-2000 08:56									#23
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Vik-If you look at the terms of this challenge (you may never build a city), you'll see that being the only civ on a landlocked continent means you have to restart, unless you get a city from a hut.

Ming-I love having about 20 non-units, and playing OCC-it really makes keeping the peace a lot easier on the budget...

"hey, anyone up for the no-land challenge?"
-KhanMan the LLSS

	03-07-2000 19:58									#25
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I think I played on the perfect map for this last night.

I had contact with 5 civs on my continent by the year 2500bc. As it turned out, the 6th civ was reachable on land by using the antarctic route -- not too far away, either.

I ran into the chinese at about 3500bc with only one city.

The huts were giving my a lot of units, too, and the French civilization was wiped out by barbarians in about 3300bc (but I had re-starting civs on, and the Germans re-appeared on my continent).

This was probably one of the best maps you could choose to play this challenge on, but I was playing OCC, and by the time I realized how good this map was, it was already about 2000bc.

I didn't save the starting position, but I just thought I'd let you know.

	04-07-2000 09:53									#26
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Vik-When you land on AC, post the landing date, and it'll go down in whatever annuls come of this

-KhanMan

	05-07-2000 19:46									#27
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Didn't get as much chance to play this weekend as I wanted, but it is early 1900 and I have decimated the AIs down to one city while I research the final techs for the spaceship. Will destroy the last city once the spaceship is launced. I will post the destruction date and the anticipated landing date.

It can probably be done much quicker, but since it was the first time, I did my typical overkill on what was necessary to mop up the AIs. I waited so long that the last civ (Sioux) had conscription. When I took their capital, there were 7 vet rifleman. It took 4 vet spys to get the walls down.

This game was very usefull for getting me in the habit of using city bribes. I never really relied on it much before. (especially since we don't allow it in MP)

God, when you take their capital, if you can bribe the other cities while they're in the initial revolt mode, they're cheap. I'm sure this comes as no surprise to those that use this tactic normally.

RAH

	14-07-2000 17:47									#28
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Well finally found time to finish.
In review
large world
7 civs - civs restart
deity
Raging
gold version (very little tribute or peace)

I launched my spaceship (scheduled to arrive in 1936 and then finished off the last civ in 1931 while the spaceship was in flight.

I'm sure this dual win date can be easily beat because I was over anal. So over anal that I doubt I'll try it again. But it was fun, and it will be interesting to see if how much someone can beat it by.

Thanks for suggesting this challange

RAH
I hate 1x1x and AIs, Back to 2x1x MP

	14-07-2000 18:02									#29
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Congrats... I think it is really good that you went for both victory conditions! It makes it even more of a challange. But you are right, it should be easy to beat. Anybody using a OCC mentality should have no problem with it.