13-07-2000 22:45									#1
	Wonder Building Tip Support Apolyton

Perhaps this has been discussed before, but after the invention of Trade, I recommend never starting a Wonder in a city until you have:
1. Enough caravans stored up to complete the wonder.
2. Shield output in the city of such a nature to make caravan building inappropriate (>50 certainly, but >30 is also not very effective since you "lose" shields by using 60 shields to build one 50 shield caravan)

The benefits to this approach are simple. By building caravans, you have the flexibility to alter your production as needed in that city without jeopardizing your Wonder shield accumulation. Say the neighbors decide to stop by unexpectedly and you don't have a big enough welcome party for them, now you can build it, save your city, and still win the Wonder race! Additionally, if you were to lose the race to the desired Wonder, your caravans can be saved for the next Wonder without the annoyance of having a city wasting shields in trying to fill a completed Wonder box. Or immediately use the now unneeded caravans to establish more trade routes, gold, and science bonuses. In the pre-Trade world, if you want a Wonder very early, then caravan hoarding does not apply. Anyone know of any detriments to this approach? It's the only way I build post-Trade wonders, and Trade typically happens very early in my games to boost Science development.
[This message has been edited by inca911 (edited July 13, 2000).]

	13-07-2000 22:52									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This is the common strategy in OCC. I would recommend however that you not store up commodity caravans in this way. I generally always build food caravans if I intend to use them to rush build a wonder. That way, your commodities are still available when you want to set up more trade routes.

	13-07-2000 23:08									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Unless of course you have hides . actually, one of my hides supplies ran out, i thought that they were inexaustable

------------------
SABRECAT

--The man who dies with the most toys is still nonetheless... dead.

	14-07-2000 03:01									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I have gotten to the point that with the exception of the first wonder, Colossus, ALL wonders are built with caravans/freights. That is why we say, "if you have built more caravans than you need, BUILD SOME MORE."

	14-07-2000 03:52									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

As has been remarked above this is standard practice in OCC - but then not everyone plays OCC...
Another major advantage of building Wonders this way is that it is easy and cheap to 'rush build' caravans -- once your production reaches the magic number of 10 shields a caravan takes two turns and costs about 75 gold.
You alow your 10 shields to go into the caravan box, change to Phalanx (or Horseman) and buy, change to Archer (or Diplomat) and buy, change to Legion (or Trireme/Caravel) and buy - you now have 40 shields in the box and have spent 75g - next turn you have a caravan.
Sorry this is old hat to the 'vets' but I thought it might be useful to some of the newbies...


[Edited for stupid typo]
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited July 13, 2000).]

	14-07-2000 04:18									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Tom,

To the best of my knowledge the good carried by a caravan used for wonderbuilding, is instantly available in the original city.

So, in my experience the supply of a commodity does not end when a caravan helps building a wonder and hence there is no need to keep track of the caravans for that reason.

That being said, I always use a food caravan over a goods caravan given the choice as the latter can be sent out to trade with.

BTW, I'm curious about the early science path in OCC. Is it mainstream to go for Trade after Monarchy to get the caravans for Colossus?

Carolus

	14-07-2000 04:38									#7
	Put an end to popups!

Carolus, it's true that the trade goods return to availability when the caravan is used for Wonder-building, but sometimes those caravans hang around waiting to be used for a while, which locks up that trade good. Someone more trade-aggressive than me might find that a serious restriction on the use of the more valuable trade goods.

Having said that, I still tend to use trade goods on the caravans intended for Wonder-building. Why? Well, often enough, I find I have a couple of really perfect trade goods when an opportunity for off-continent trade opens up. I will (selectively) divert caravans from my cache in that case.

Committing food trade to a caravan bothers me. I've read that it does not take food away from the host city, but I've never tried it. Is that really true?

	14-07-2000 05:45									#8
	Remove this text

I agree with the concept of building wonders with caravans. The bulk of the shields for my wonders derive from them.
But, IMO, the concept should not be taken to far. 50 shields spend on a caravan that has to wait for, say, thirty turns, before it gets added to a wonder, is too large an investment without any return for too long. If one had spend those shields on a marketplace or had send that caravan off to establish a trade route, the return generated in those thirty turns would cover the cost of buying a new caravan by the time it is actually needed, on top of the improvement/route that was also created. The same holds true for three caravans that have to wait for ten turns.
So, when you think you have build enough caravans, you just might have.

Cavebear, food caravans don't deplete food until establishing a food route.

------------------
Hasdrubal's Home.
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam.

	14-07-2000 07:05									#9
	Remove this text

If I don't have enough gold or caravans to build a wonder quickly, I also start with building a few food caravans. If you have production of 10, 13, 17, or 25 shields, there is not much waste. I notice that the AI seems to know which wonders you are building, and will follow suit to compete. If I abandon my usual many wonder strategy, I find that the AI will not try to build some at all! I also try to start with a wonder that I do not care about and shift at the last moment. I have no idea if this deception helps--does anyone--?

	14-07-2000 16:38									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If things are going well for me, I'll build just enough caravans for a wonder, then micromanage the shields so all the caravans are within one turn's movement of my capital on the turn I make the discovery that makes that wonder available. When the capital completes the caravan, I change its production to the wonder. Then all the caravans charge into the capital and build the wonder in a single turn. You lose one turn's production from the capital this way, but I think it's the most effecient way to go.

I agree with Hasdrubal that stockpiling caravans is a waste, although I'd spend the shields on settlers instead of improvements .

	14-07-2000 16:41									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I hear ya', cavebear!

"So, when you think you have build enough caravans, you just might have." Heretic!!!

Seriously, finally someone who doesn't mechanically repeat jpk's caravan slogan! [Carolus Rex looks for a way to create a thumb's up-smiley, but fails]

But, IMHO wonderbuilding with caravans is a question of speed and timing. It really should be done in one turn, at least in MP.

vik,

Does that mean you build the library before the Colossus? Sorry if this is spelled out in the forthnight threads, but I'm not à jour with OCC...

Carolus

	14-07-2000 16:55									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Missed DaveV's post.

Two personal points:

i) Even though being optimal, I usually don't time it with the discovery of the tech. Too complicated for my brain! I'm happy if I have three caravans within the city's reach when it builds the fourth caravan.

ii) You waste a turn's production, but maxing trade isn't a bad alternative is it?

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited July 14, 2000).]

	14-07-2000 17:06									#14
	Got spare money?

I don't mind hording caravans if I know that there is a purpose for them. If there are some good wonders that are going to be available in the near term future, I consider them an investment, and not a waste.

I also like to time it so I can build a wonder the turn I get the science. In MP, it's too easy to get screwed... Nothing better than getting the science, seeing that it is white, and then using all those horded caravans to build it in one turn... Unless somebody steals the science, and then gives it to another player that moves after them but before you... the wonder is yours!

	14-07-2000 19:35									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I agree with Ming. You need to have both the technology AND the means to exploit it. If you are going to get the technology a couple of turns early, it is sometimes worth raising your tax rate just a bit and using the proceeds to rush buy the needed caravans. I usually use food caravans to build wonders and commodity caravans to trade. Much easier to keep track of 'em all that way. However, sometimes you can use a commodity caravan to build a wonder and change what the origin city supplies. This can be pretty useful if you have some high value trading destinations within reach.

	14-07-2000 20:03									#16
	Put an end to popups!

Building wonders with caravans is fine for early wonders. In my games there is often competition with the AI for wonders like Copernicus and Sun Tzu.

I usually play on a large multicontinent world. If you play on small single continent worlds things may be different.

Caravans prior to Invention are quite valuable. If you can deliver one to an AI Republic city situated on another continent, then you can get hundreds of coins and an equal amount of science. Typically this is more science than your civilization will turn out in several turns. Even if your ships are triemes, delivery to a nearby AI civilization is generally far more productive than using it for Wonder Building. Two to three such caravans will provide the funds for any premodern wonder. Then you can either buy the Wonder outright or spend the money building lots of food caravans. Which you choose will depend upon whether you need the wonder right away or you can wait a while.

As I never play MP, I will defer to Ming on the proper strategy in that situation.

Carolus Rex might disagree , but if you can no longer produce caravans for trade, then a good strategy is to produce food caravans for wonder building.

Actually harbor and courthouse building are good things to do. Once you go to Democracy they really help with We Love The President Days.

	14-07-2000 20:04									#17
	Got spare money?

Hasdrubal,

You say that you only lose the food unit when actually establishing a food trade route. In other words, this means that if you use a food caravan to create a wonder, you don't lose the food unit at all?

Ming,

What does it mean when a science is white? I've noticed this before, but never really could tell what it meant....

Do you guys all rush build wonders even in SP games? I just started playing at King level, and I haven't usually found this to be necessary.

Is there a thread anywhwere that defines all the abbreviations used in these posts? How about a thread on OCC and ICS strategy? I'm still kind of new at all this. Thanks for all the interesting information.

	14-07-2000 20:07									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If a science is white, it means you are the first to get it. (nothing better in a MP game to get Monarchy and see that it is white)

	14-07-2000 20:18									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

jpk: Heh, heh, heh!

A clarification:

Obviously, I too build a wonder with available caravans the turn I get the needed tech. In the beginning of the game the timing is more difficult, though.

So I'm satisfied even if I first discover the tech and have three caravans ready in range when the fourth is built in the wonder city to be.

I hate completing the fourth caravan if I already have the tech but the other camels are too far away to complete the wonder immediately.

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited July 14, 2000).]

	14-07-2000 20:34									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Novi Nomad, you can find a list of abbreviations at http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum1/HTML/000967.html

And you only lose a food unit when you actually establish a food route, so no food is lost when you use a food caravan to build a wonder.

A white science in the science advisor screen means that you are the first to discover that science. In the foreign advisor's "check intelligence" screen a white science means that you don't yet have that science.

	15-07-2000 09:06									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

In a way the leader in science is awarded a limited embassy. If you see new sciences white you know no one else has it yet. I don't know why this is in the game.

	15-07-2000 09:16									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Novi Nomad:
You can go to the "Distilled Civ Tips and Notes" thread that I started. I try to pull the best kernels of information from threads such as this one for more concise review. IMHO (in my humble opinion), it has discussions of lots of civ things that will help you play a much better game.

To all:
Well, I have no qualms about building some actual commodity caravans to try for a Wonder for the following reasons:
If the caravan is from a small city, then the bonus will be fairly small as well, so no big deal if I delay the commodity. If I lose the Wonder race, I can then decide to ship the commodity somewhere else or I can sit on it for the next Wonder. Typically all my cities have 3 trade routes ASAP so I'm only postponing the trade bonus until later and not missing any trade arrows from not having 3 established routes. Also, if the next Wonder I care to build isn't coming up very soon (I don't try to build them all), then if I have a bunch of food caravans sitting around, I can't quickly grab a nice science/gold boost by establishing trade routes whereas with commodity caravans I can. The food caravans are just too stagnant for my personal tastes. Of course, OCC is another story. Not taking advantage of every available trade commodity is a bid no-no.

Can someone point me to a good discussion on rush-buying? I do it quite often, but I noticed that I have not yet included it in my Distilled summary. Thanks!

	15-07-2000 09:25									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

MWHC, not just the leader in science gets it, everyone gets this info. Lets say I am behind in the Mono race, (which I know since whenever I get a prerequisite and it is blue, which is critical information to have), I go another path. When I get feud, and it's white, I know I'll get the war acadamy if i can build it in one turn. SO everyone can benfit from this feature. And that is probably why they included it.
You just have to know how to use it

RAH
It's probably a left over from the old SP days when you could use it to judge how you were doing against the AI, and they just left it in not realizing the strategic nature of this info in an MP game

[This message has been edited by rah (edited July 14, 2000).]

	15-07-2000 09:58									#25
	Suffering from ads?

Before Trade, or, your chosen path doesn't include Trade early, a few diplomat disbands can be the difference between building a wonder and "xxxxx is building XXXX but that has allready been built...."

	14-07-2000 22:42									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Smash, good one. I've disbanded a couple of units before for just that reason.

The worst is, now you're racing for another tech so you can use those wonder shields but you're constantly worried that some other player is going to slip a diplo in and sabotage the production, or barbs will come and kill a few defenders. I hate it when you have to build a 200 shield phalanx.
Not often, but it has happened.

RAH

	15-07-2000 02:06									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

RAH and Smash:

I've gone so far as to disband every defender of my capital to build a wonder. Luckily neither Mongols nor barbarians have shown up to see if anyone is home.

	15-07-2000 04:25									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ya, pretty much any unit will do in a pinch.I don't think I'd disband a non unit.Or I would give it a hard think anyway.I like diplos as they don't require support and they can do stuff while you decide to disband them or not.

hehe..one of the worst things that can happen early is being stuck with a 90% finished wonder but none to build.AND a bleak outlook for the next 2 or 3.That is almost always the point you get barbs or other visitors.
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited July 14, 2000).]

	17-07-2000 20:12									#29
	Support Apolyton

Smash:

Over time wonders take an increasing number of shields. If you have a city that is working on a dead Wonder, plan ahead for a wonder that requires more shields. This is no doubt easier in single player than multiple player.

Have other cities send over a good offensive unit and a good defensive unit to withstand attacks. Again this is no doubt easier in single play than multiple player.

Say you know you will be able to build a 400 shield wonder and your already in the low 300 shields. Set the city to as high a trade as possible or convert workers to scientists.