23-06-2001 00:09									#1
	On Borders and Culture Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

How will culture effect borders in late game? I can imagine that you absorb a far less advanced tribe (a la roman empire), although even that is questionable. But in this time of overpopulation and great technology, and fixed borders, doesn't that make culture as expanding factor obsolete?

And what's more, I think 'cultural attacks (or takeovers if you prefer)' should not be possible once nationalism (as technology or whatever) has been invented.
But you would need some culture rating to be a nationalist, or you would have nothing to be proud of

Rather complicated actually, but heck, it's apolyton, you'll figure something out

	23-06-2001 00:37									#2
	Remove this text

I agree with that completely. I also think (if they haven't already) that when your culture borders expand, they can't drive back someone else's borders. That was really annoying in SMAC that an enemy (the Believers in my case) could just build a city slightly closer to your territory, and then drive your borders back. They kept doing that everytime I got a Colony Pod out there ARRGHH!!! But anyway, I agree that the assimmilation of cultures should end sometime, and Nationalism seems like a good time to end it. I also like the idea of the culture requirement for nataionalism. Maybe even a culture requirement for other techs too. i.e. you can't research cathedrals before you have had the "experience" building temples, which would be shown by the fact that you have culture.

	23-06-2001 10:00									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Of course you should be able to drive back the border with additional cities of your own. Not instantly but as your culture expands. Remember in the old days borders were largely fuzzy and posession was really 9/10 of the law. If the computer players could do it to you, you could do it to them too. That's what I do in SMAC/X, driving their borders back. It works great and gives you lots of chances to complain ("Hey your unit is on my soil!" ).

I don't think cultural assimilation should stop arbitrarily at some point. This forces nations to work on culture instead of strictly military. After all, the game's called Civilization innit? Furthermore, since there's a cap to civ advances the relative differences will eventually be trimmed down. If you work on the difference, that is.

	23-06-2001 11:01									#4
	cultural assimilation Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Cultural assimilation is still occuring today except we might say it's being carried on by corporations. Western music, food, and entertainment is slowly (quickly?) taking over the world. My slightly crazy coworker said the other day, "You know, Korea is just a colony of the United States." He says such things because he thinks his culture and country are superior but there was a grain of truth in what he said. Lots of kids are giving up traditional foods and ways and embracing Coca-cola and Walt Disney. Very sad. I see lots of kids here wearing clothes with American and Canadian flags on them. Often they don't even realise it's another country's flag on their shirt (especially the Canadian flag - they think it's the Roots Canada trademark). In game terms, I don't think cultural influence should stop after nationalism but it might slow a little or be countered if you have certain types of government.

	26-06-2001 00:36									#5
	Re: cultural assimilation Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Anatolia Cultural assimilation is still occuring today except we might say it's being carried on by corporations. Western music, food, and entertainment is slowly (quickly?) taking over the world. My slightly crazy coworker said the other day, "You know, Korea is just a colony of the United States." He says such things because he thinks his culture and country are superior but there was a grain of truth in what he said. Lots of kids are giving up traditional foods and ways and embracing Coca-cola and Walt Disney. Very sad. I see lots of kids here wearing clothes with American and Canadian flags on them. Often they don't even realise it's another country's flag on their shirt (especially the Canadian flag - they think it's the Roots Canada trademark). In game terms, I don't think cultural influence should stop after nationalism but it might slow a little or be countered if you have certain types of government.

Its all about trade. This kind of cultural 'exchange' has been happening throughout history, it hasn't just started, albeit, the corporations like that have. Niether has militeristic takeover been completely eliminated. The Nazis were willing to do, right? Anyway, the Greeks were doing similar things in the ancient world, Hellanization via trade. Alexander did come along and conquer the world, hurrying the process along quite a bit.

Ioanes

	26-06-2001 00:52									#6
	Re: cultural assimilation Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Anatolia Cultural assimilation is still occuring today except we might say it's being carried on by corporations. Western music, food, and entertainment is slowly (quickly?) taking over the world.

Cultural assimilation is not the same as assimilating into your nation. If a specific culture permeates enough countries' societies it no longer belongs to the original country.

For example, if all countries in the world spoke English it would not mean that the English ruled the world. Although the English language (in a sense) does. In truth the English language is not really "English" anymore.

The same is true for many cultural identies -music, food, entertainment, etc.. Even corporations aren't national but have international identities.

If anything, nowadays, the only thing cultural assimilation does is to affect relations (either detrimentally or beneficially) between nations.

	26-06-2001 11:14									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Of course you should be able to drive back the border with additional cities of your own. Not instantly but as your culture expands. Remember in the old days borders were largely fuzzy and posession was really 9/10 of the law. If the computer players could do it to you, you could do it to them too.

Shouldn't that trigger war? I mean when or where was it ever possible to build a settlement close to the border of your neighbour and then instantly gain land, even land thats been cultivated for ages??

I agree that borders were fuzzy and still are at some places. I.e. Saudi Arabia's borders with Jemen. The Pope arbitrated the border between Chile and Argentina, that had been fuzzy, especially in the southern barren regions, and this was pretty recent.
Maybe an invention like: "Land Surveying" (is that the correct word?) could identify your borders?

	26-06-2001 17:31									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think the changes are relative. If you have played SMAC/X before you know what I mean. When you build a city where there's nobody you immediately claim a large territory. Now when an opponent builds a city outside of your border you're pushed back some, but not as much as you had gained. When you build a city in its direction you push the border back, but less than what the computer did to you.

I guess this largely is caused by influence. The more influence you have (more cities, etc.) the less you lose, until your border is anchored down and can't be moved.

I think "Mapmaking" would allow a civ to accurately map out its borders, but without any people out there this border is just theoretical. Yes, encrouchments like that could cause conflicts, e.g. the Sino-Indian border war in 1962.

	26-06-2001 18:10									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't think Civ 3's borders are broad enough to make flexible borders practical. They expand very slowly so if one city/nation absorbs a square first, it is because they have a solid base of cultural identity in that region. A later city being founded nearby should do nothing to alter that. Only if the city itself is destroyed should the surrounding cultural border be eroded. For every part of the world where borders have been vague there is another where the line has been known to a few metres for centuries.

	26-06-2001 18:59									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I haven't read everyones post


When the borders are next to another civs border, when you build a city next to the border, that border gets pushed out a tiny bit, but shouldn't the border be 'virtualy protected'?

So if you wanted your new founded city to have some land, you would have to attack the border where the city is in order to gain some land?

	26-06-2001 20:36									#11
	Remove this text

I don't know how borders will work in Civ 3. Maybe it will be the SMAC way of moving back and forth a lot, which will be nailed down eventually. Alternatively borders could creep slowly forward with lots of "No Man's Land" in the middle.