30-07-2000 00:08									#1
	Do you conduct Economic Warfare (theft of trade routes)? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What I mean by theft of trade routes is snatching an already established routed from another civ. E.g., while driving your caravan of carefully tanned Hides from Beruit to Stockholm you get to Vienna and discover that they could also use Hides, but that the trade route for that item has already been established. Stockholm is a size 10 with good trade potential, but Vienna is a size 25 city. Do you go with the smaller initial bonus but better potential long term benefit as well as the chance to deprive another city or do you keep plodding along to Stockholm?

I'm finding the theft of trade routes to be more and more inviting as I get better at the utilization of trade routes.

In multiplayer do you check with your allies first before trying to steal a trade route?

Ken

	30-07-2000 01:00									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

My interest is with the boost in science from the delivery of a caravan. It is my opinion that the science bonus dwarfs anything you get from turn by turn science.

The only city that even has a chance of equaling the science of one delivered caravan is a super science city.

Trade routes are important for getting and sustaining We Love The President Days. When you get to the point that you need a thousand beakers for an advance, a beaker or two doesn't usually make a whole lot of difference.

I play on large multicontinent worlds. Small single continent worlds may be entirely different.

	30-07-2000 06:02									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

So Jpk, I take it that you would push for Stockhom and hope that by the time you arrive that they still want your hides (for 200 gold and science) instead of stopping at Vienna for 95 science and gold. Is that correct?

Ken

	30-07-2000 23:20									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ken, If I understand you correctly, you are proposing that one should consider eliminating the trade to one opponent (or ally) in favor of your own even at the cost of a reduced trade and science bonus for yourself.

It sounds like you are trying to discuss the value of long-term trade vs the immediate gold and science bonus. It would be difficult to evaluate that quantitatively.

My guess is that you will do better going for the immediate science and gold bonus *and* the increased long-term trade value of going on to the larger and more distant city.

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	30-07-2000 23:47									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Cavebear,

I was looking more at the potential for trashing the opposition's trade and research capabilities on a somewhat long term basis. Trade routes last around 15 turns or so.

Granted, there are a number of unknowns at work here.
1) Will I eliminate the existing trade route in favor of one established with me? Or, will I just collect a reduced bonus and get no trade route established?
2) What is the distant city in the existing route?
3) Is the route internal or with an opponent Civ?
4) How much trade is the existing route creating? Have I just raised the trade benefit for the connecting Civ?
5) If I am successful in rehoming the trade route to me (theft worked) how much did the distant city lose and is it enough to do significant damage?

If I cause long term damage to taxes, luxuries, and research then I think the reduced initial bonus was a worthwhile investment. Especially since if it takes very long to make your delivery you have no assurance that the item will still be in demand when you arrive.

I've gotten so that I build caravans whether anyone needs the goods or not and just troll them around until I find a route to steal.

Ken

	31-07-2000 04:04									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Uh, can we play a game? I like it when the opposing player wastes his resources. Doesn't mean I'd win, but I think I'd have a better chance than usual... *s*

	31-07-2000 14:56									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ken - have I missed the point or simply misunderstood the game mechanics here???

Surely if cities A and B have a trade route worth x arrows/turn and now you with a caravan from C turn up at city A and establish a trade route for y>x arrows/turn which removes B from the list in city A it is my belief that city B retains its x a/t

This is based upon sending many caravans to the SSC (which of course can only have 3 routes) but all the other cities still benefitting from the on-going trade...

	31-07-2000 19:37									#8
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Ken Hinds:

It would depend on how many additional turns it would take to get to Vienna. If it were a few more turns I would go for it.

Another consideration would be what the AI players were doing. If someone was working on a Wonder I really wanted to build but I did not yet have the technology for it and the delivery of a caravan RIGHT NOW would mean that on my next turn I could very likely choose a new technology I might very well do that.

	01-08-2000 10:23									#9
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Jpk,

I was thinking in terms of stumbling upon Vienna while on your way to Stockholm either overland or via ship. If I should happen to find Vienna with another unit that is not traveling with the caravan then as you indicate the detour may not be worth the effort of getting there.

Ken

	01-08-2000 10:54									#10
	Support Apolyton

SG,

What I found seems to happen, particularly with AI trade routes is, that once the routes have been changed, either because city A no longer demands the item or because the delivering city has changed, then the secondary routes established to city A from B, C, D, etc. tend dry up about 5 to 6 turns later. I haven't been able to check this constantly during a game, but the 6 or 7 times that I managed to check trade routes using a spy or diplomat it seems to work that way.

I've also noticed that, like you indicate for your SSC, you can send serveral caravans to a city just to get the bonus on cash & science and if I do that for items not in demand then the routes to Vienna, in my example, hold up like normal. However, if my theft of the trade route fails, particularly if the caravan is from a low trade city, then the route either never forms or is not very long lasting.

Whether I'm seeing coincidental effects or true game workings I'm not sure, but I have been trying it for a while and I think it is working. I was interested in whether anyone else does this on a regular or frequent basis and how they thought it did for them. Most of the regular posters here, such as yourself, seem to be more dedicated and advance players than I am.

Ken

	15-08-2000 00:11									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You cannot steal trade routes.

Trade routes don't dry up for one city when the other gets a new route and has the old route dropped from its list.

- Rib -

	15-08-2000 01:13									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

There seems to be some confusion about trade routes and what is "demanded". Demand simply means you get a bigger initial bonus. That's it. To have demand or not for any given commodity is basically meaningless otherwise.

The only way to "end" a city's currently established trade route is to destroy the city at the other end. That goes a bit beyond economic warfare