27-06-2001 22:13									#1
	Creating short term goals Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In another thread, Dr. Fell suggested to me a good way to learn to play Civ2. He suggested setting short term goals - not worrying about winning or having a long game. But setting certain objectives to accomplish in a short game. Then setting another goal, etc.

I am excited about this approach, and I wonder if anyone has any suggestions for some of the goals and the steps toward those goals.

I got overwhelmed with OCC. I'm not ready for that yet.

I really want to learn this game, but I need to do it by taking certain steps toward a goal - then setting another goal - until I get a feel for some of the intricacies of the game.

Please offer some suggestions to me about what some good first goals might be and the paths that might lead to them.

Have any of you ever taken this approach?

I repeat: at this point I am not interested in winning a long game. But learning a little bit at the time.

Thanks.
sboog

	27-06-2001 23:06									#2
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The best short-term goals for the beginning player, like yourself, are generally military goals. Once you have founded a few cities and have met the local natives (i.e. you closest AI civ), pick a couple cities and develop a plan to capture them.

The plan should include research paths that lead to stronger military units, producing the units you will need for the conquest and developing the land between you nations (namely build roads toward their cities to speed up the movement of your troups).

Early in the game it should be easy to make peace with the rival civ and practice your diplomacy skills (trading techs, etc). A good early strategy to learn with is to make peace and trade techs while working on developing bronze working and then mathematics. Once you have mathematics, stop trading techs and build several catapults and a few phalanx. March your army to surround the target city and then declare war on your neighbor and capture the city.

Continue building military units and capture a couple more cities. Also, continue researching military techs to keep the advantage of military might over your opponent(s).

After you have conquered all or at least most of that civs cities, move on to short-term goal #2. Start improving your original and newly acquired cities. Build some granaries, marketplaces, temples, libraries, maybe a wonder or 2.

You will later learn that there are better tech paths and more effecient ways to accomplish such goals, but as you stated, you are looking for basic, simple goals.

As one hint of what you can look to do in the future, go for monarchy pre-reqs and monarchy itself before looking to develop military might. Also, as you get a better feel for the game, begin working on both goals simultaneously.

One last tip, try not to read too much info from this board too soon. One of the best parts about Civ is discovering all the intracacies of the game yourself. I do strongly recomend reading the manual (or at least keep the advisors turned on) so that you aren't missing out on some key feature/tool available to you. However, if you read too much here early on, you will gain a lot of knowledge but miss out on finding some of this stuff on your own. Civ is one awesome game once you get into it, but until you do, follow the advice given to everyone at an alchoholics anonymous meeting: "KEEP COMING BACK!"

	28-06-2001 03:53									#3
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Thanks, Albert. I WILL keep coming back.

I like your idea to start with a military goal. Will see what I can do about building up and capturing a city.

Thanks for all of your good ideas. All of this makes more sense to me than my trying to jump in and mindlessly swim with no short term goals along the way.

sboog

	28-06-2001 19:09									#4
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sboog,
I suggest something more basic. I have use this to help people gear up for MP.

The two earliest goals should be Monarchy and Growth.

Now please keep in mind that these goals are based on 2x production and deity with no starting techs. so you will have to modify them a bit.

Modest goal one.
Be in Monarchy by 2850 bc
Two
4 cities by 3000 bc
Three
8 cities by 2000 bc

Keep restarting and playing the first 2000 years until you can meet these simple goals. Once you can attain them 75% of the time, you will have learned the game mechanics well enough to well exceed these goals in 50% of your games. The knowledge you learn to accomplish these will give you a great basis for the rest of the game. You too can laugh at the pathetic AI.


RAH

	29-06-2001 00:43									#5
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RAH, I have been working on the goals you gave me. I got to Monarchy at 2940BC. But only had 5 cities at 2000BC.

I felt I needed more settlers to build all the extra cities. But the three I had were building roads, etc and were not movable.

And I ended up with 11 military - and on the island like map I had, after they had found several huts, they just seemed to move aimlessly with nothing to do. And couldn't get off the island. I didn't know what to do with them!

I can see this is a good way to get into the game.

I have a LOT to learn!

sboog

	29-06-2001 00:55									#6
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I usually set "city Goals" I will take one city and see how many beakers I can get and one city and set how many sheilds I can get and so on

	29-06-2001 03:26									#7
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Familiartiy with units was one of my goals in a similar effort. Although this was in the Civ 1 setting it still can be a way to become familiar with the units of Civ 2.

I limited myself to 1 to 3 cities and provoked trouble with the AI opponants to encourage conflict. You can not only hone up on your defense strategies, but after dozens or hundreds of battles per unit type, you can also see how effective each one is in a given situation.

Also things like is making vet units always a practical idea...

For example is it worth and what will you need in order to win a decisive battle or war against an opponant in a given situation?

Like if they are defending with two non vet musketeers, how many crusaders, or ironclads, or musketeers.... will it take to asure you do not fail to capture a city. But it is never completely predictable since some units are lost incredibly easy while others for no other reason than chance, seem indistructable.

	29-06-2001 17:30									#8
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sboog, you're getting the idea. In the first 2000 years, a few roads are fine, but those settlers could have created cities. Then those cities could have created settlers that could do a little more improvements. Good on Monarchy, the extra production/trade/ and less corruption really makes a difference.

Since your date didn't end in 50 or 00 I assume you weren't playing in deity. Start playing in deity. Playing at the lower levels can teach you bad habits. All the city happiness levels change by dificulty, you might as well get used to the worst.

RAH

	29-06-2001 21:05									#9
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Sorry to contradict a master, rah, but don't start by playing in Deity. Learn what you can build and what you can't at the lower levels. The only one that will really teach a bad habit is Chieftain, with its free switching between production types. Once you figure out the general strategies of the game, move up level by level. I usually play on King, even though I've been able to beat the game on Deity/Raging Hordes since about three months after I got the game. Above Warlord, each difficulty level is only a matter of scale. You'll find that your units get weaker and weaker, that your people get more and more unhappy, and that the computer keeps up better in the tech race. The difficulty levels are there for a reason.

	29-06-2001 21:37									#10
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I stand firm in my recommendation. Play deity and it get over it. You need to learn the happiness levels in all the governments. Why keep relearning then every time you advance a level? Many things will work at the lower levels but not at deity. Why waste time learning those things just to be frustrated when they don't on deity. It's not till deity that the impact of trade arrows becomes much more important. It's critical that you learn how to use them early. Otherwise you're just sloppy. (a generalization not meant to be picked apart by the other more experienced players)

I played my first ever game on deity and got my ass kicked. I won the second game.

The lower levels teach you bad habits and gives you a false sense of security.

Why should you have to learn how to win on each individual level when you can just learn it once. (even if it takes a little longer)

RAH

Anyone can learn to beat the AI, the real opponents are other people, and they're not very forgiving. Set your GOALS HIGH.

	29-06-2001 21:49									#11
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Why should you have to learn how to win on each individual level when you can just learn it once. (even if it takes a little longer)

RAH

Anyone can learn to beat the AI, the real opponents are other people, and they're not very forgiving. Set your GOALS HIGH. [/QUOTE]

__________________________________________________
___

Boy I am with Krazy Horse on this one. This game is considered entertainment for some people, not a training problem. And you should play on the level you find entertaining

	29-06-2001 22:02									#12
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quote: Originally posted by jake03 quote: Why should you have to learn how to win on each individual level when you can just learn it once. (even if it takes a little longer) RAH Anyone can learn to beat the AI, the real opponents are other people, and they're not very forgiving. Set your GOALS HIGH. Boy I am with Krazy Horse on this one. This game is considered entertainment for some people, not a training problem. And you should play on the level you find entertaining

Yeah, but -- i played the game at about the Prince level and it was one of many games I played -- then, due partly to this board, I mastered Deity - and now it is the computer game I play

	29-06-2001 22:08									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Yeah, but -- i played the game at about the Prince level and it was one of many games I played -- then, due partly to this board, I mastered Deity - and now it is the computer game I play

Yeah and that is cool SG all I am saying is it is just a game. If I have a bad day I can go home and crank the level down a bit and just crush AI troops just for fun. And if you aren't haveing fun what's the point. If you are having fun then you are on the correct level

	29-06-2001 22:29									#14
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I'm going for the Deity level. And you know something, at least when I get my a** kicked I'll know someone else is there!

All this wandering and building at Chieftain I feel so "alone." And when I do bump into some opposition, I get rewarded for my "valor." Doesn't make much sense. And I just never feel there is another soul really there. Like I'm in a vacuum. (Not much better than playing the Tutorial over and over...)

So even though I know I am going to get slaughtered, I believe on Deity the game will come alive for me!

Thanks all.

Will keep you posted on how it went.

sboog

	29-06-2001 22:53									#15
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WAY TO GO, good luck.

Now someone made a comment about fun. I'll concede that one, BUT easily winning is not what I consider fun. It's fun to get your ass kicked almost to extinction and then rise out of the ashes to win. It's fun to get beat when the AI launches after you but beats you there. (i'm guessing on that one since it never happened to me) For me, games are like life, I want the challange. I would never LET my daughter win. When she wins, she knows I tried my best and she truely accomplished something of value. (shows how competitive our family is)

But you're right, pople should play for enjoyment, and if they have fun womping a pathetic AI at the easiest setting, then more power to them. I'll get my satisfaction a different way. Which for now is MP, the true challange. If not for MP, I would have stopped playing this game 3 years ago.


RAH

	29-06-2001 23:00									#16
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Rah, did you own Civ I before you got Civ II? If I'd stepped into Deity without any background, I would've gotten my tail whipped for at least 10 or 15 games. You don't even have to step up every level. Start at warlord. When you win, go to king. When you win, go to deity. You'll probably win your first game on warlord, barely win your first on king and lose your first on deity. I know I did. The second game you might win.

	29-06-2001 23:20									#17
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Yes I owned civI, and my first game was at the toughest level.

You must take into account, having Ming as a twin brother growing up, we always compared our results when we played any type of game. (yeah, we're almost 50 and we still act like kids) It was a must to learn any game at the toughest level to get as good as possible. Nothing worse than hearing "You played it at WHAT level, you wussie"

I did make an exception when I first got CTPII. (I knew Ming didn't own it yet) I played my first game at the level just below the hardest to get a feel for it, (and won), and then played the second game at the hardest. (and won even earlier)

But it's a matter of personal preference. I recommend playing the hardest from the start. It's not for everybody, but I'll still recommend it. I may find doing it the other way silly, but I won't make fun of anyone that choses that route.

RAH

	29-06-2001 23:26									#18
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You must take into account, having Ming as a twin brother growing up, we always compared our results when we played any type of game.

_________________________________________________-

OK OK lets me honest now Mings your brother, at the very least I am sure the two of you own a small country with 17 shields 35 beakers 200 tax and they celebrate everyday. I bet you two are brutal in muti player

Last edited by jake03 on 30-06-2001 at 00:07

	30-06-2001 02:14									#19
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Rah and Ming are twins? No jive? Neat.

Think I'll go with KrazyHorse, to a degree. Go from the tutorial to King. Win at that level. Then go to Deity. Deity puts so much emphasis on happiness that other elements can not be fully explored. CIV 2 IS NOT solely a wargame. Trying to learn at Deity will never put that point across. Do you multiplayers ever agree to race for AC instead of slaughter each other? I probably don't need to ask! Anyway, one has to be a very dedicated freak to start at the toughest level of a very complex game and enjoy getting your clock cleaned.

Sboog, enjoy it whatever you decide. Come back and tell us about the experience.

	30-06-2001 02:42									#20
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"a very dedicated freak", checking in. Yes, we're identical.

TUTORIAL, hahahahhahahahahahaha geeze, you might as well read the manual. j/k

When/IF we play multiple sessions, It's about techs. First one to Howies is fun. Great advantage if you can build SDI's before anyone else gets nukes. First one to nukes has one heck of an advantage and the game usually ends quickly afterwards, (in a blaze of nukes or a quick series of concessions) But if the person is that far ahead at that point, the odds are he would get to space first. Which is the real reason MP games never get to AC. Someone is that far ahead of everyone else that's it's kinda futile. (YEAH I know diplo games get to that level all the time) It's rare that everyone is equal enough after 3 sessions that they want to continue.

If you're gonna ever play MP, it's a good idea to get used to a hard game where you're gonna get your clock cleaned, because it happens even to the best every now and then.

RAH
Different strokes for different folks.

	30-06-2001 05:29									#21
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i have to agree with Rah here. i too started with civ1 and although my first game was on the easiest level, i moved to the hardest setting next game, and had my ass kicked.

i then proceded to conquer the world immediately after that game and hav't looked back since. Now i did lose my first game on deity, but after that it was a rare feat.

I believe in learning one level of play, ie the hardest. This may not work for everyone but to repeat the "i play for fun theme" and want to crush people, well this isn't the game for that IMO.

however, to each his own, and MP is the only way to go.....

I love playing Rah, Ming, Markus, Eyes, and co.........

	30-06-2001 06:16									#22
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Well, guys. I played on Deity twice. Once as German and once as Persian.

Both games had me calling upon the Deity!!!

Right off I was plagued with "civil unrest" and the poor mayor fleeing for his life. I did not know how to fix it. I moved a phalanx back into the city and that made things ok for one turn.

You all, I am floundering. But I can tell you this, playing at Deity jolts me into wanting to find solutions. Whereas, playing the
Tutorial over and over was boring - and I never really learned what I should have.

Playing on Deity forces me to sink or swim!

I hope I can swim...

sboog

	30-06-2001 06:48									#23
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yeah sboog - you have it exactly -- I plyed Civ2 at chieftain to Prince for years - and it was one of the dozen or so games I played on my PC - then I moved to Deity - and now Civ is essentially the only game I play - go for it - make your bones and get on with this wonderful game!

	30-06-2001 10:46									#24
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well i bow to the great palyers of civ 2 that can paly at the hardest level and win with ease, I have palyed civ 2 for nealry 3 years and still cnat beat the AI on Emporer level, I usually paly 1x1x , large world , 7 civs ....

I have beaten the AI at King level but only jsut... a mad dash for nukes ending in all out nuclear was with my paratroopers taking last AI city before he could nuke my last ones...

The strategy I used to win was basically go for Monarchy first, then head to get to Monothism picking up the tech to allow you to build SunTZus war acadamey along the way, giving you vet units..

Once i got vet crusaders, i then sent out battalions of vet pikemen and crusaders to conquer the world..

Was fun doing it the frist time...

At chieften level to prince level i would usually delay total annihalation of the AI to launch to Alpha Centuri...

I am still learning liek you , but I refuse to take it too seriuosly it is still fun for me,

But I do agree with Rah that MP is the greatest, you dont need to be able to beat AI at Deity to play MP... Look at me !!! I can play MP with the best of them and enjoy it (not necessarily beat them) But dont go for the boring duel games IMHO...

	30-06-2001 19:25									#25
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First of all... Ming and rah related? Who'd'a thunk it?

As far as goals go, sboog, you can get a lot of them here. Everyone has their own strategy and different strategies require different goals (world conquering vs. AC). One thing on Apolyton I found helpful, which I don't think has been mentioned, is the 'first 20 techs' list. Getting Monarchy and Trade are big keys, but I didn't have any other real priorities except to grab whatever tech on the list helped me the most, immediately. Having a research strategy with a goal like Democracy (for the Statue) or Monotheism (for Crusader hordes) keeps me from wandering around getting whatever happens to pop up on my research options list.

You ARE gonna get clobbered on Deity, the first time and maybe the first few times. I recognize where the pro-Deity folks are coming from, but in my case, if I get excessively frustrated with a game, I don't play it. I'll go outside where the sun is shining and the CD will gather dust For me, I usually play on Emperor now, and I have a lot of fun there. Moreover, I played on Prince and King before coming here, so I _have_ learned a few things. I haven't learned to love the unhappiness on Deity, though, so I've come up with a solution: In the same way you set up a Deity +5 game, I now play on Deity +1 but with the unhappiness (city riot size at chieftain) in game.txt bumped up 2 so the unhappiness factor is the same as at Emperor.

I've won my first game on that level, after a couple of tries. Do I consider myself as having won at Deity? No. Did I have fun? Yes. Did I think the huge AI cities were cool? Sure did

Bottom line, it was a challenge, but it doesn't p*** me off the way Deity does when citizen #2 is unhappy...


STYOM

	02-07-2001 22:34									#26
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quote: Originally posted by jake03 Boy I am with Krazy Horse on this one. This game is considered entertainment for some people, not a training problem. And you should play on the level you find entertaining

True, it is about entertainment, and the AI will give you your money's worth at Deity. It will drive you up a wall with the unhappy citizens and the AI cheats. But you get to see the clever espionage, technology races, even a space race! That's getting the most out of Civ2! In lower levels you're pummeling phalanxes with aircraft and wondering high you can boost your score for the last few centuries. There is nothing like the feeling of narrowly edging out another Civ for a Wonder when you know it's as tough as the AI gets.

Low-level habits are a bad thing to begin and they die hard. Don't be afraid to be behind in the game and even lose sometimes while you're learning. You'll be glad.

	03-07-2001 04:35									#27
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no fun in always losing... I usually retrict myslef to king or emporers level as that is a challenge to me yet still fun, some times i win sometimes i lose . usually depends on starting location a good start usually means a win, a bad start means falling way behind early and struggling to catch up later