28-06-2001 14:37									#1
	Total Thought Control Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

What are the difference between Mind Control and Thougt Control other than cost?

One of the apparent differences is that one can Thought Control a base from faction with whom you are not at war and apparently there are no adverse consequences - no notice and no vendetta.

Is this right?

Ned

	28-06-2001 15:37									#2
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Yes.

And I believe the cost is the same, while the probability of success is lower.

	28-06-2001 23:10									#3
	Re: Total Thought Control Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ned One of the apparent differences is that one can Thought Control a base from faction with whom you are not at war and apparently there are no adverse consequences - no notice and no vendetta.

Which has always struck me as a little strange. Sure, bases can revolt if drone riots get bad enough (just once, I'd like to receive a base this way instead of just losing them). But units?

"Hmmm, there's Jeb and Johnny in a nice Spartan uniform. Guess they just up and decided to switch on us."

Fooling an entire faction feels a little 1984 for me ("Asassin's Redoubt is a Morganite base. It has always been a Morganite base. It was never a Spartan base. Anyone who says otherwise is an unperson.")

	29-06-2001 02:22									#4
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I figure they use Empathi to telepathically control the entire base. Needs a large outlay of capital, but has less chance of actually working than standard Mind Control, since it actually makes the faction leader believe that the base has changed hands of its own volition.

Might write that into Unity somewheres...

	29-06-2001 04:16									#5
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Total Thought control effect doesn't last forever.

Played a game and decided to go with the Total choice...things were peachy for about 5 turns, then Deirdre (whose base I'd stolen) moved a unit inside the taken over bases radius and immediately declared vendetta. I had taken NO other action against her and been complying with her demands to try and keep her appeased...Stealing her base was just to protect my own borders because she was getting to big (and I wanted to see what Total Thought control did.)

	29-06-2001 06:52									#6
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Theo, I think I had a similar experience. One of my bases revolted to Domai. I Thought Controlled the base back. I did not get an immediate vendetta. However, the next turn Domai calls up and declares war - however, he does not mention the stolen base, so I really do not know if the one act was the cause of the other.

	29-06-2001 07:02									#7
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My thought...sure the Total Thought control didn't cause the vendetta.

What did was when the opposition physically saw their base no longer belonged to them.

That is my theory.

	30-06-2001 00:11									#8
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For some reason, the thought that the captured base doesn't count as captured for drone/destruction purposes has surfaced in my mind.

	30-06-2001 05:53									#9
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Fitz, Could you amplify this thought? In another thread, I already reported that losing a base does not affect b-drones, but that acquiring a base does. Are you suggesting that a base acquired through thought control is treated differently?

Ned

	02-07-2001 04:37									#10
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Gee, you mean all this time that I have been spending Energy Credits to steal bases I've been spending credits that I didn't need to? I've always used Total Thought Control. One question that your comments bring to mind is that with TTC I get Drones that are passive but at 1 layer lower than the basic "Unmodified" level of drones the manual says it takes about 5-10 turns for these to give up their loyalty. Do you get this with Mind Control also?

Ken

	02-07-2001 05:37									#11
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Ken, I'm willing to be that those drones say "captured."
If they are, then they probably disappear just as other capture base drones, in about 30 turns.

So far, the only difference between Mind Control and Total Thougth Control is the that the latter does not cause the owner of the base to declare war.

In Civ, another difference was that the more expensive subversion option left intact temples and the like. Perhaps TTC leaves intact corresponding facilities, while mind control does not.

Ned

	02-07-2001 06:45									#12
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This question got chatted up a bit in another forum a few weeks ago. Among the other posts, I wrote what I had read in the manual and could recall from in-game play:

Mind Control convinces only that one base's population that it really is part of your faction.

Total Thought Control makes everyone (The residents of the base. The entire faction. All the other factions. Your faction.) believe that the base "taken away" always has been part of your faction, that things were never any different from the beginning of time. That is why it doesn't incur any retaliation. No one is even aware there is anything to retaliate for!

It makes for a difficult ethical choice if this is done in a multiplayer game: If one of your bases is TTC'd away from you, is it proper for you to retaliate, since you aren't supposed to know anything has changed? If you were to "recapture" the base (by any means other than TTC), its citizens would believe you are tearing them away from the only way they've ever known!

-----

From the manual (formatted for emphasis):
"The cost of a Mind Control [or Total Thought Control] operation against a base depends on a number of factors, including the base's size, the enemy's energy reserves, facilities and special operations in a base, and whether or not drone riots are occurring."
No, it doesn't address the question about the Success Rate percentage, which does seem lenient considering the result.
Maybe it's another example of where SMAC focusses on the economic aspect of an operation. (Offer enough cash and the entire community sells out.) If that is the case, it would warrant, as SnapperL argues, either (1) higher cost to offset the apparent ease of success or (2) lower success rate. (Both ways take into account the die-hard loyalists, (1) the ones who can't be bought and (2) the ones who actively resist.)

-----

There is also there this post by "Bornon":
If I'm not mistaken, total thought control bribes units in the city's territory as well, eg formers. Drone riots are also less prone to happen (drone activity is raised for two turns after occupying the city of an enemy).

	03-07-2001 00:37									#13
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To expound upon my thought, and address john's last comment about drones, when you capture a base, there are 20-50 or so turns of extra drones, deoending on difficulty, until they all dissappear and the base becomes "yours". At this point the graphic changes.

I was thinking that when you use TTC, the base instantly (or very quickly) becomes "yours", and therefore you don't suffer the consequences of captured base drones. I'm not sure the graphic instantly changes, regardless of my correctness in my thought.

Happy Ned?

	03-07-2001 06:20									#14
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Fitz, Very!

Do you have some thoughts on why multiplayer techs are sometimes not "researched" in the same turn as the labs necessary accumulate?

Ned

	03-07-2001 08:07									#15
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Regarding the base graphic changing, I used to think that it happened whenever you crossed the next size threshhold (you've probably noticed that there are several different base graphics, which get bigger as your pop grows). Now, I'm not so sure about that, but it could still be true.