09-03-1999 10:03									#31
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Yes the record will fall, starting in a forest with no science really slowed me down. Anyone that can get into monarchy quicker should be able to knock 20 years off mine. I'm guessing Ming will do it by 1935. The only reason I took that start was because besides the forest, I had wine,silk,spice and pheasant in range. And it was in a river basin. And most important there were two huts in sight that produced chariots. (helps considerable) It was also very defendable. I never let the ai's get closer than 10 squares to it. Until the snapshot from space came back, they never knew were I was. Good luck all of you (except for Ming of course) I wasn't planning on trying it again, but maybe I will to do once more to make it harder on Ming. It only took a couple of days. (and all this assumes that the ai's can't eliminate before 1953 (ten years left)
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

	09-03-1999 10:16									#32
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And just as a salve for those egos out there. Please remember, between Ming and I, we have many many years of experience with Civ. I used every legit cheat, including airports on hills, Reassinging bribed caravans to my capital, etc. But most important, I played over 200 starts between 0 and 30 turns before I found one I wanted to try it with. Patience will prevail.

	08-03-1999 23:44									#33
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Get a faster machine. From quit to new world generated for me is only about 8 seconds. Your hand does get sore from hitting the enter key. At least it remembers your selection.

	09-03-1999 00:12									#34
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Rah... I'm appalled! You actually used the airfield on a mountain trick, and you reassigned caravans. Well! What kind of record is that? He he he... I'm sure both of those tricks must have cut 50 years off a legitimate run. So maybe we should just add those to your time and call it 2003 instead.

I just want to announce that I would never use those sleazy tricks. (actually, the opportunity never presented itself) My record will be clean! (Unless the opportunity does present itself)
As long as you aren't resetting huts, resetting combat or peaking... what the heck.
Your tainted record will still fall. JK

	10-03-1999 12:26									#35
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I finally did it on deity! launched a 15/3,3/1,1,1F ship in 1984, landing in 1999.
The starting position was nothing special, with one whale and coal, along with a few grassland rivers and some ocean. It was on a peninsula of sorts. I used some dips stationed a few squares away in likely city spots to keep the sioux at bay. Late in the game, raging horde barbarians landed, and I sent the dips scuttling back to the city. I forgot to move them back, right away, and found a sioux city established. A key, I think was an early alliance with the sioux(I normally never do alliances). I asked and got gifts(mostly gold). I found a number of huts, but only two units, and one of them got wasted by a surprise encounter with barbarians.
I built colossus/copernicus/isaac newton, and the essential shakespeare's. I got beat out on great-library, but built marco-polo instead. It might have turned out just as well. I later built UN and got peace with everyone.
The key was staying peaceful and out of wars. I think the AI tries to build a city one square away just to aggravate you. If this happens, the AI gets very pushy. Keeping the AI from building such cities seems essential.

	10-03-1999 20:26									#36
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Congrats geofelt, well done. I originally thought it was impossible and I thought people were making it up when they talked about it, but once I thought it could be done, It became possible.(gee a life lesson)
I always set my defensive perimiter a little farther out if terrain permits, so noone ever gets close to my capital. I still think wars are good. The ai is stupid and you can get them to expend a lot of their production capacity to waste as they attack fortified units in fortresses in mountains. You can also keep them from expanding at will or protect weaker civs. You can't have one civ conquer half the world or you're in trouble, unless it's one that doesn't do science. And you can't make money offering peace if you never go to war. And my final on war, it's fun and gives you something creative to do during the middle game. I still haven't finished my last ten turns yet. I was thinking of eliminating a few civs if I can to add to the amusement.
RAH

	11-03-1999 04:53									#37
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I'm close to winning my 1st game w/one city. My city site is beautiful. A flat grassland/plain completely ringed by hills and mountains, with a river running along the city's outside edge. Only two specials, but I hilled 3 river squares and flattened 3 regular hills(that runoff from my mines is gold, baby!). I have 7 fortesses with 1 each of my best defenders + 1 spy in them, except the one facing the Japanese which has 2 DEF units. I was producing 55 shields/turn before industrialization!

Observations from the field:
At 1st I thought a island world would help you win, but I now think a single continent is better. You have to have a military presence on the same land mass to threaten people, and you will meet them quicker, allowing you to get their money before they can spend any.

Must have port: At 1st I thought so; now I'm not so sure. This game I don't have a port. Also don't have to worry about Lighthouse, Magellan's, building harbor/platform, or marauding ironclads.

wonders:
Colossus-Effectively doubles your science for many, many years. Must have if you don't get GL early.
MPE-If you can't explore and people are not coming to you, or surrounded by hostiles. If you have a port maybe not so necessary.
Copernicus/Issac Newton-complete the science city. You'll need it.
Hanging Gardens-Makes getting "we luv you" days much easier. Helpful to early growth, but not necessary.
Sheakespeare's/King Richard's-YOU MUST HAVE THESE! Get KRC ASAP since the sooner you get it the more shields you will generate in the long run. Sheakespeare's allows lux to be set to zero, or automatic "we luv you" days in repub/demo. Don't forget to sell that unnecessary temple.
Leonardo's-Very useful since you don't have time to rebuild units.
GL-Helpful but not as much as I thought since by the time I can devote sufficient resources to build it it's halfway to obsolesence.
Darwins'-If you have lots of trade(you better) quite nice to get 2 techs fast. Max the tax and buy it in 3-4 turns.
Apollo-If you don't build it you're not going to win. Although if somone else is building it but doesn't have all the techs to build a ship consider letting them finish while you build caravans to help build spaceship parts.
U.N.-Useful to stay in peace in end game.
Lighthouse/Magellan's/Oracle/eiffel-All useless. Don't bother. Distances in small world are still close, and oracle just doesn't last long enough to get it even to keep from the enemy.
All others-Useful only to keep the enemy from having them, although pyramids and Hoover are especially so. For SOL, if you have Sheakespeare's, go to Democracy and stay there. Otherwise it could be helpful.

Most important: Try to kill off one civ if you can. Then try your best to keep all other civs in balance towards each other. This is important, and why being on the same continent is helpful. If one civ is too tough send an expeditionary force to take their capital and trigger a civil war. Bribe them to fight each other constantly. Keep people fighting the one who is looking the toughest(also a good reason to get Marco's).

Well, does this mesh with other people's tactics?

	11-03-1999 05:01									#38
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How about 1 city MP game? Who's up for that?

	11-03-1999 08:57									#39
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Just finished. 1953 it was. The last ten years when fast, enter enter enter enter etc. My continued harassment of them must have worked. There great assualt to take my capital after I launched was feeble. They were so far behind in science I never saw artillary or planes from them. It was so boring, that I went back and replayed the ten turns to use all of my defensive troops to launch an assault. In those ten turns I captured 5 of the 7 Babylonean cities including their capital. 4 out of 9 of the greeks cities. (I didn't bribe the cities either, those were the two civs that annoyed me the most during the game, payback's a bit**.) The only interesting part of this is that once I left my protective shell and owned cities where they could get spys at them, within 4 turns over 40 spys from all the civs deluged these cities to steal techs, then all the exchanges and they were all building spaceships the next turn. It was hilarious. Now all that's left to wait for is when Ming will post that he beat it. I know he will.
I would like to thank everyone that contributed to this thread because it encouraged me to do it.

RAH

PS. For the real diehards, the next challange should be that after you launch, you have to conquer the entire world before it lands.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, no one could do that because it's impossible. (but wait, we thought one city was impossible. hmmmmmmmm)

	11-03-1999 12:33									#40
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A 1 city MP game would be great fun. I'm in.

	11-03-1999 13:02									#41
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Aaargh , I can't manage to do it at Deity !!
I did it quite easily at Emperor, at my first attempt, but at Diety level I'm always losing. I seem to be well on the way but in the end there is always a civilizition that conquers all the world and defeats me or makes me late enough so that I can't finish my spaceship.

About conquering the world with one city:
I was about to do it at King, just two enemy cities left... (well, I had Howitzers and Armors, they have just discovered gunpowder)

	11-03-1999 13:58									#42
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Against the AI, the next challenge would be to try with larger maps. With the largest world possible, the AI's production advantage would really take off.

Carolus

	11-03-1999 18:02									#43
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Geofelt... Congrats!
Since my ISP has been down often (a nice company that never had any problems until they were bought out be a big communications company) I'm giving it another try. Started with 3 whales and a wine, but had to start the city on plains. I just passed 1800, and I don't know yet whether Rahs record will fall. We will see...
As far as 1 City MPE goes, it won't work. Or I should say, it wouldn't be the same. Tribute is the primary source of income, and that doesn't work against real people.
I like the thought of trying with bigger maps.
And I might try a Kill everybody game. In the game I'm playing, my army is huge, and all non except for one ship that I built early.

	11-03-1999 20:16									#44
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This has opened my eyes to new ways to play the game. I did understand from reading the threads in the MP forum that the diplomat is a key unit in those games, but never thought they would be so effective so early in AI games.

Sure, I've had my fun bribing against the AI, but I never tried it this early before. I would build most of the early units myself.
Yesterday I started a three city game on a normal map. Three cities! After the recent orgie in one city games, it's pure luxury!

Still played conventional in the beginning, building a phalanx in each city. After that, I went shopping. It's a lot of fun.

Carolus

	13-03-1999 01:53									#45
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Again, my ISP has allowed me to continue my quest against Rah's record my not letting me access the web at home... I'm at 1890, and it's going to be close, or I won't be able to do it. Science is not coming fast enough.

Carolus Rex, yes, it is fun. I now have over 80 non military units, and nothing better to do but harass the nearest civs... Just bring your Visa card, and let the fun begin.

	15-03-1999 10:36									#46
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How about a 6 player 3 on 3 arena style game, one city a piece, and possibly no wonders except appollo program? We could probably do it single production. The game would still go by pretty quick. With 3 cities each it could probably be done without the science wonders, especially with the huge trade bonuses between the enormous cities, and 6 humans researching the tech (you know there would be plenty of tech stealing).

	15-03-1999 20:35									#47
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3 on 3 would be tough... money would be a problem... but at least you wouldn't have to worry about losing your city to bribery.

Well, I couldn't take Rah's record. Missed by 3 years. Didn't get the science fast enough. Well, I'll try again. With all the work I have to do around our house, an hour here and there is easier to do than MP. I will keep trying.

	16-03-1999 06:56									#48
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I was cheated!!
I launched a 15/3,3/1,1,1fusion ship in 1930, expecting to land in 1945, beating rah's record. But no!
The babylonians discovered space flight in 1931, discovered plastics, and superconductor and launched a 29/7,7/1,1,1 no fusion ship in 1934 arriving in 1942.
I checked out their 16 cities, and 5 had production of less than 10. No city produced more than 60, and most were in the 20's and 30's. If each city produced something every turn, it would have required 44 city/turns out of the available 48--not likely, I think, even considering the smaller deity production box. I don't think gold was used, they ended up with 7000.
This is sad, because I had a really nice gams. Guess I'll try again.

	16-03-1999 17:58									#49
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Yes geofelt... you were screwed.
The trick is to harass the AI's and force them to concentrate on military. Once they get Superconductor... it's all over. The game where I didn't beat rah's record, none of the AI's were even close in the science race. They were too busy building military and giving me money.
Question, did you trade sciences with them after the early part of the game? I find it is better to never give them any advanced science. Make them do the research themselves.
But even though you got beat, it just shows the record can indeed be beat. The only question is, who will do it first.

	16-03-1999 18:47									#50
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Well I tried again and I'm in the late 1800 and it doesn't look good. Unless I get the perfect science path going out, it ain't going to happen. Only 5 other civs caused a problem with money. I didn't build the great library this time and it didn't seem to matter. They gave me all the simple sciences as tribute. I am still way ahead in the science race. And geofelt, you were screwed but I'm also interested to know if you traded sciences with them later in the game. If you did, it's your own fault. I also believe harassment of the enemy is critical. They have lots of cities that only produce units instead of city improvements which really slows their science development. And as we all know, hehehehe, once they get superconductor, your spaceship better be long gone or you're toast. I may try once more, but that despotism challange is starting to sound interesting. I can't believe my first completed attempt still stands as a record. I'm particularly disappointed with Ming. (imagine appropriate childish taunting noises here)
RAH

	16-03-1999 20:44									#51
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You may still be able to help yourself by trading technologies late in the game. If you are about to get off the science path you need, pick something that an AI has, research it for one turn, then trade it to the AI for whatever. Next turn you get to pick a new tech to research, and will probably get back on the path. At a minimum, it takes less time to get back on the path you need. You may even save time overall if AI's can research faster than you.

	16-03-1999 21:01									#52
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I understand what you are saying Adam Smith. And I have done that at low levels before. But to give the AI's any advanced science is the road to death if you ask me.
And Rah... I did hear the "childish taunting noises"... Your record will fall.

	17-03-1999 10:26									#53
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A couple of comments and questions from someone who hasn't succeeded at this yet.

In my most recent attempt, I spent the first 2000 years (what is that, 20 turns?) picking up goodie huts and looking for a good starting location. By the time I settled the city, I had contacted three of the other four civilizations and I don't think any of them had more than one city, and only one of those was size 2. Does the AI mimic a slow start by the human player? If so, it seems to minimize the risk of falling too far behind one of the other civs in science. The problem, in my game at least, was at the back end of the game. I probably could have launched a space ship by 2015, but it wasn't going to arrive by 2020. (Those of you who are focused on arriving before 1935 can stop chuckling now.)

It is really tough to get enough money to buy a decent NON military. Do you mostly pick off barbarian units or do you aggressively pursue other civ units as well? Either way, I think I'm going to have to work on my skills demanding tribute.

You have Colussus. If you have to choose between KRC and Copernicus, which would you take? Do you think you can win without one of those?

	17-03-1999 10:37									#54
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One other thing. I've been playing on small world with five civs. Is there a consensus that seven civs is easier? Seems to me it would allow more tribute and slow down the expansion of other civs. Tonight, seven it will be.

	17-03-1999 10:49									#55
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Without tribute, you don't have the money to bribe and buy... It's that simple. The only real early money is barbs and the small change from huts. Once the other civs start getting money, let the tribute begin.
And go for 7 civs. I get pissed when I set 7 and end up with less. The more civs, the more tribute.
And Copernicus is a must to get science going. KRC is nice, but most of the games I've played, I haven't built it. I've built Colussus in every game. The hanging gardens is nice, but I can now live without it. I pray I get medicine from a hut so I can work on ST... because that is the answer to happiness...
Keep on trying... it's fun.

	17-03-1999 00:11									#56
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The science wonders are a must. I have never built krc in any game I've ever played. I'm always too busy building other wonders. (what does it do anyway, hahaha) I have stopped building GL and HG. Ming is right, get to medicine and build ST. ..and no, the AI does not mimic a slow human start.
Until Ming kicks my ass, I have to assume that I had the better strategy.
(The keyboard just can't express the proper attitude on childish taunting noises)
RAH

	17-03-1999 01:16									#57
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I've built Shakespeare's in every game, and the need to do so is generally why I can't get both Copernicus and KRC. Happiness, for me, has not been a problem: temple and colosseum usually take care of things until ST (perhaps with a few turns at 10% luxuries towards the end). I haven't built HG ever, but was thinking of doing so just to experiment with WTLPD in monarchy. Any thoughts on whether that would be productive?

	17-03-1999 02:55									#58
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A key is the science rate at the end of the game. I don't trade ANYTHING then. The AI will give it to everyone. I did trade for something in the middle, but only a tech that the other civs already had.
I think you want all the science wonders. This not only helps you, but it slows the AI. I always like KRC, but perhaps it is not necessary. My best cities have the potential for 80 shields-net. A city with 5 hills(esp wine/coal) and 5 river squares is ideal. If it can be defended from mountains nearby- then perfect. In such a city, then KRC may not be needed, only to deny it ti the AI. I have been trying to build the great library, part for me, and part to keep the AI down.
Question; do you all trade for techs early, use the GL, or develop them all yourself? Before embassy, I trade once to see what the new civ has.

	17-03-1999 21:35									#59
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Your problem geofelt is a classic one. You are hung up on production and not trade. Your idea of a good city gives it away. Coal, who cares... give me wine, spice, gold, and other trade specials. My current game has two gold, a fur, and a whale. Yes, I'm light on production (I have converted a grassland to hills to jump the production a little. All you really need is 55 production. That way, one freight and your 55 allows a structure to be built. Money can be used to buy up everything else.
Who cares what your production... tell my how much trade you have. That is what keeps you ahead in the science race. The game I'm playing now (and I better finish before rah posts an even better record) the other civs are so far behind it's great. There will be no way they will be able to pull that launch after me but beat me anyway crap. Now I just I have to finish up and see if 1953 will be going down.
Now to answer your questions. I trade very early only. There is a rare time when I might trade a middle science if all they ask for is something stupid. (mono for navigation was the last one I did) Otherwise, no trading for me. Plus, you can usually get them as tribute. Which brings me to the next point. Go for the science wonders. You must have them in the end. GL is no longer of interest to me. It doesn't matter if an ai gets it, because they would trade anyway. At the point in the game when I can build it, there are better things to be doing. Any sciences you really need you can get through tribute. After the early period, 99% of all sciences, I develope myself.

	17-03-1999 21:57									#60
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Gee... after reading that novel, all I can say is.....Same strategy as me. What a surprise. The record will depend on how lucky a start position and luck on the huts. This tells me the record will fall because all it will take is persistence. Ming has plenty of that.
BUT UNTILL THEN: (CAPITAL CHILDISH TAUTING NOISES)
Somehow I know the payback on that will be a b*tch.
On to despotism.
RAH